Fear

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michael
Posts: 3816
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:13 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by michael » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:24 am

maple3 wrote:
maple3 wrote:
michael wrote:maple... there is always a concept lurking behind the emotion of fear...

can you articulate it...

Love
Hmm, not sure how to explain... I'm saying the bare and naked "emotion of fear" has nothing to do with the "concept of fear" (although I admit the two can also be connected)...

It's like when that ferocious bear surprises you, and you don't really have time to even conceptualize what it is. You might have a natural reflex ... and jump, startled (flight or flight reflex)... and the adrenaline is instantly created in the adrenal glands, instantly washing throughout the bloodstream. Ya know, the adrenals don't actually need a "concept" to create adrenaline at faster-than-lightning speed...

And all that "flight or fight" response happens without the "concept," and without the "thinking" about what has frightened you. And like Toomby said, the brain is "a tenth of a second" behind... (comparatively very sluggish when compared to the biological and emotional responses to fear). So I'm talking more about the raw emotions that have nothing to do with concepts. Certainly concepts can create emotions... and concepts on top of concepts can create emotions on top of emotions... but emotions can also exist without any concepts whatsoever.


Love
To add to what I wrote above...

For sufferers of PTSD, the emotion of fear is clearly unfettered, while also seemingly still fettered to a concept.
no fear is unfettered... behind every fear is a 'me'

what colour does seeing fear to see... what colour seen could possibly harm the seeing of it

what odour does smelling fear to smell... what odoure smelled could possibly harm the smelling of it

what sound does hearing fear to hear... what sound heard could possibly harm the hearing of it

what flavour does tasting fear to taste... what flavour tasted could possibly harm the tasting of it

what feeling does feeling fear to fear... what feeling felt could possibly harm the feeling of it

what idea does knowing fear to know...what idea known could possibly harm the knowing of it

there is no fear in the arising of sensations... or in the knowing of concepts...

fear arises with the phantom... 'me... separate to the world'... afraid of being hurt... afraid of oblivion... afraid of losing what it claims as its own...

this cannot be controlled by the phantom... it does not even know of its own existence... let alone the fear... it is the perceived... not the perceiving...

unafraid... fear is perceived... in the moment it is imaged...

amazing!!!
maple3 wrote:And the reason you don't really need a concept to feel emotions is because all emotions are created with biochemicals. It is not possible to feel sadness or joy without its accompanying biochemical process. All emotions are actually a biological function, not a concept... But yes, concepts can trigger those same biochemical processes.


Love
as for 'emotions caused by a chemical'... that too is just a concept... admit that you've never seen this happen... nor has anyone...

concepts don't cause feelings to arise... and feelings don't cause concepts to arise...

their mutual arising is a mystery... at least to the knowing and the senses... to awareness...

to 'power' it is no mystery at all...

but then again... 'power' does not exist...

just like 'consciousness'... :D

and yet so plain...

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
epi
Posts: 1711
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:01 pm
Location: ...Dimension currently unknown

Post by epi » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:36 am

behind every fear is TIME ......
meL

Post by meL » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:39 am

epi wrote:behind every fear is TIME ......
bring
on
the
QM
experts

:shock:

i heard a rumor that
TIME
doesnt work in the QM equations ... it falls away
:shock:
epi
Posts: 1711
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:01 pm
Location: ...Dimension currently unknown

Post by epi » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:41 am

You guys lean to extremes...
meL

Post by meL » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:43 am

TIME

cant be known.

... and i dont know anything about the math/science( knowledge )

:roll:

Give this monkey another banana !
.
meL

Post by meL » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:44 am

epi wrote:You guys lean to extremes...
WE
follow You

into the Light

:D
epi
Posts: 1711
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:01 pm
Location: ...Dimension currently unknown

Post by epi » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:44 am

meL wrote:TIME

cant be known.

... and i dont know anything about the math/science( knowledge )

:roll:

Give this monkey another banana !
.
'Time cannot be known' ...

That is correct sir.....
epi
Posts: 1711
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:01 pm
Location: ...Dimension currently unknown

Post by epi » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:46 am

Its quite the madness to sit here on my off time from my job

and read books from Einstien...and whoever..

...seeking knowledge...only to be kiciked back on my ass ....

pure emptiness
empty-and-full
Posts: 1448
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:20 pm
Location: Unknown

Post by empty-and-full » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:04 am

michael wrote:
maple3 wrote:
maple3 wrote:
michael wrote:maple... there is always a concept lurking behind the emotion of fear...

can you articulate it...

Love
Hmm, not sure how to explain... I'm saying the bare and naked "emotion of fear" has nothing to do with the "concept of fear" (although I admit the two can also be connected)...

It's like when that ferocious bear surprises you, and you don't really have time to even conceptualize what it is. You might have a natural reflex ... and jump, startled (flight or flight reflex)... and the adrenaline is instantly created in the adrenal glands, instantly washing throughout the bloodstream. Ya know, the adrenals don't actually need a "concept" to create adrenaline at faster-than-lightning speed...

And all that "flight or fight" response happens without the "concept," and without the "thinking" about what has frightened you. And like Toomby said, the brain is "a tenth of a second" behind... (comparatively very sluggish when compared to the biological and emotional responses to fear). So I'm talking more about the raw emotions that have nothing to do with concepts. Certainly concepts can create emotions... and concepts on top of concepts can create emotions on top of emotions... but emotions can also exist without any concepts whatsoever.


Love
To add to what I wrote above...

For sufferers of PTSD, the emotion of fear is clearly unfettered, while also seemingly still fettered to a concept.
no fear is unfettered... behind every fear is a 'me'

what colour does seeing fear to see... what colour seen could possibly harm the seeing of it

what odour does smelling fear to smell... what odoure smelled could possibly harm the smelling of it

what sound does hearing fear to hear... what sound heard could possibly harm the hearing of it

what flavour does tasting fear to taste... what flavour tasted could possibly harm the tasting of it

what feeling does feeling fear to fear... what feeling felt could possibly harm the feeling of it

what idea does knowing fear to know...what idea known could possibly harm the knowing of it

there is no fear in the arising of sensations... or in the knowing of concepts...

fear arises with the phantom... 'me... separate to the world'... afraid of being hurt... afraid of oblivion... afraid of losing what it claims as its own...

this cannot be controlled by the phantom... it does not even know of its own existence... let alone the fear... it is the perceived... not the perceiving...

unafraid... fear is perceived... in the moment it is imaged...

amazing!!!

maple3 wrote:And the reason you don't really need a concept to feel emotions is because all emotions are created with biochemicals. It is not possible to feel sadness or joy without its accompanying biochemical process. All emotions are actually a biological function, not a concept... But yes, concepts can trigger those same biochemical processes.


Love
as for 'emotions caused by a chemical'... that too is just a concept... admit that you've never seen this happen... nor has anyone...

concepts don't cause feelings to arise... and feelings don't cause concepts to arise...

their mutual arising is a mystery... at least to the knowing and the senses... to awareness...

to 'power' it is no mystery at all...

but then again... 'power' does not exist...

just like 'consciousness'... :D

and yet so plain...

Love

Thank you for expanding on my original post michael, it's a pleasure to read. :mrgreen:
:)
maple3
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:25 am
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Post by maple3 » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:33 am

michael wrote:
maple3 wrote:
maple3 wrote:
michael wrote:maple... there is always a concept lurking behind the emotion of fear...

can you articulate it...

Love
Hmm, not sure how to explain... I'm saying the bare and naked "emotion of fear" has nothing to do with the "concept of fear" (although I admit the two can also be connected)...

It's like when that ferocious bear surprises you, and you don't really have time to even conceptualize what it is. You might have a natural reflex ... and jump, startled (flight or flight reflex)... and the adrenaline is instantly created in the adrenal glands, instantly washing throughout the bloodstream. Ya know, the adrenals don't actually need a "concept" to create adrenaline at faster-than-lightning speed...

And all that "flight or fight" response happens without the "concept," and without the "thinking" about what has frightened you. And like Toomby said, the brain is "a tenth of a second" behind... (comparatively very sluggish when compared to the biological and emotional responses to fear). So I'm talking more about the raw emotions that have nothing to do with concepts. Certainly concepts can create emotions... and concepts on top of concepts can create emotions on top of emotions... but emotions can also exist without any concepts whatsoever.


Love
To add to what I wrote above...

For sufferers of PTSD, the emotion of fear is clearly unfettered, while also seemingly still fettered to a concept.
no fear is unfettered... behind every fear is a 'me'

what colour does seeing fear to see... what colour seen could possibly harm the seeing of it

what odour does smelling fear to smell... what odoure smelled could possibly harm the smelling of it

what sound does hearing fear to hear... what sound heard could possibly harm the hearing of it

what flavour does tasting fear to taste... what flavour tasted could possibly harm the tasting of it

what feeling does feeling fear to fear... what feeling felt could possibly harm the feeling of it

what idea does knowing fear to know...what idea known could possibly harm the knowing of it

there is no fear in the arising of sensations... or in the knowing of concepts...

fear arises with the phantom... 'me... separate to the world'... afraid of being hurt... afraid of oblivion... afraid of losing what it claims as its own...

this cannot be controlled by the phantom... it does not even know of its own existence... let alone the fear... it is the perceived... not the perceiving...

unafraid... fear is perceived... in the moment it is imaged...

amazing!!!
maple3 wrote:And the reason you don't really need a concept to feel emotions is because all emotions are created with biochemicals. It is not possible to feel sadness or joy without its accompanying biochemical process. All emotions are actually a biological function, not a concept... But yes, concepts can trigger those same biochemical processes.


Love
as for 'emotions caused by a chemical'... that too is just a concept... admit that you've never seen this happen... nor has anyone...

concepts don't cause feelings to arise... and feelings don't cause concepts to arise...

their mutual arising is a mystery... at least to the knowing and the senses... to awareness...

to 'power' it is no mystery at all...

but then again... 'power' does not exist...

just like 'consciousness'... :D

and yet so plain...

Love
I don't really disagree, michael; I know what you're saying, (I think?)...

But, I was trying to point to some other angle of understanding.....

It just seems that we're talking about two different definitions, two different meanings/understandings of the same word, (damned English :evil:) ... or two different aspects(concepts?) of the word/emotion "fear."

But again, admittedly I'm just not so good at explaining it.

But oh, if I could only articulate it... well, that would probably be a very interesting discussion. ;)


Love
awakening
Site Admin
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:10 pm

Post by awakening » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:09 am

Doe anyone feel that at times our discussions here get too abstract?

There is no this,
there is no that,
only as imagined,
and so on....

All true to some extent
and useful as pointers at some times
but this means nothing when fear jumps in...
imagined or real...

Or to paraphrase Forest Gump
"The body is as the body does."

And when there are too many 'there is no.... postings' for Leo's taste
he digs up the same ol' words that always come to mind at such times..

"Thirty years ago, before I practiced [Zen], I saw that mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. However, after having achieved intimate knowledge and having gotten a way in, I saw that mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have found rest, as before, I see mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers."

Zen master Quingyuan, describing 'his' insight The Compendium of Five Lamps "


*****************************************************

KYE HO! Wonderful!
You may say "existence," but you can't grasp it!
You may say "non-existence" but many things appear!
It is beyond the sky of "existence" and "non-existence" --
I know it but cannot point to it!

From Tantric Buddhist Women's Songs (8th - 11th c.)


***************************************

The nature of phenomena is nondual,
but each one, in its own state,
is beyond the limits of the mind.
There is no concept that can define
the condition of "what is"
but vision nevertheless manifests:
all is good.

From; "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu



***************************************

Things are not what they seem;
nor are they otherwise.

~ Lankavatara Sutra ~



ANNA
Posts: 4093
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:11 pm

Post by ANNA » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:19 am

Good morning, dear One :D


yes, mountains are mountains
rivers are rivers
all is good

Image

be well and have a peaceful lovely time
in no time

:wink: :lol:
awakening
Site Admin
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:10 pm

Post by awakening » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:22 am

ANNA wrote:Good morning, dear One :D


yes, mountains are mountains
rivers are rivers
all is good

Image

be well and have a peaceful lovely time
in no time

:wink: :lol:
Good morning Anna.
Thank you and the same to you.

I'm sure you found a great picture, but it does not show up here.
Perhaps you have another one...


ANNA
Posts: 4093
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:11 pm

Post by ANNA » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:29 am

awakening wrote:
ANNA wrote:Good morning, dear One :D


yes, mountains are mountains
rivers are rivers
all is good

Image

be well and have a peaceful lovely time
in no time

:wink: :lol:
Good morning Anna.
Thank you and the same to you.

I'm sure you found a great picture, but it does not show up here.
Perhaps you have another one...


Sorry, Leo, if the pic does not show up 'there'

because it shows up 'here'... :lol:

...mystery :wink: :lol:

...never mind...i have an other pic...hope this time
it will shows up to you there...

Image

The autor of this photograph
says:

For me one of the joys of flying is to be able to look out of the airplane windows at the land, mountains, rivers, sea, clouds in the horizon and the changing patterns of light and shade as one passes over and through; completely cocooned and detached in the cabin. Its like looking at a living canvas. I love it.


...isn't that lovely?! I love IT... :wink:

:D
michael
Posts: 3816
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:13 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by michael » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:37 am

meL wrote:TIME

cant be known.

... and i dont know anything about the math/science( knowledge )

:roll:

Give this monkey another banana !
.

'time' is only known...

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
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