Fear

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michael
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Post by michael » Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:41 pm

maple3 wrote:
michael wrote:
maple3 wrote:
maple3 wrote:
michael wrote:maple... there is always a concept lurking behind the emotion of fear...

can you articulate it...

Love
Hmm, not sure how to explain... I'm saying the bare and naked "emotion of fear" has nothing to do with the "concept of fear" (although I admit the two can also be connected)...

It's like when that ferocious bear surprises you, and you don't really have time to even conceptualize what it is. You might have a natural reflex ... and jump, startled (flight or flight reflex)... and the adrenaline is instantly created in the adrenal glands, instantly washing throughout the bloodstream. Ya know, the adrenals don't actually need a "concept" to create adrenaline at faster-than-lightning speed...

And all that "flight or fight" response happens without the "concept," and without the "thinking" about what has frightened you. And like Toomby said, the brain is "a tenth of a second" behind... (comparatively very sluggish when compared to the biological and emotional responses to fear). So I'm talking more about the raw emotions that have nothing to do with concepts. Certainly concepts can create emotions... and concepts on top of concepts can create emotions on top of emotions... but emotions can also exist without any concepts whatsoever.


Love
To add to what I wrote above...

For sufferers of PTSD, the emotion of fear is clearly unfettered, while also seemingly still fettered to a concept.
no fear is unfettered... behind every fear is a 'me'

what colour does seeing fear to see... what colour seen could possibly harm the seeing of it

what odour does smelling fear to smell... what odoure smelled could possibly harm the smelling of it

what sound does hearing fear to hear... what sound heard could possibly harm the hearing of it

what flavour does tasting fear to taste... what flavour tasted could possibly harm the tasting of it

what feeling does feeling fear to fear... what feeling felt could possibly harm the feeling of it

what idea does knowing fear to know...what idea known could possibly harm the knowing of it

there is no fear in the arising of sensations... or in the knowing of concepts...

fear arises with the phantom... 'me... separate to the world'... afraid of being hurt... afraid of oblivion... afraid of losing what it claims as its own...

this cannot be controlled by the phantom... it does not even know of its own existence... let alone the fear... it is the perceived... not the perceiving...

unafraid... fear is perceived... in the moment it is imaged...

amazing!!!
maple3 wrote:And the reason you don't really need a concept to feel emotions is because all emotions are created with biochemicals. It is not possible to feel sadness or joy without its accompanying biochemical process. All emotions are actually a biological function, not a concept... But yes, concepts can trigger those same biochemical processes.


Love
as for 'emotions caused by a chemical'... that too is just a concept... admit that you've never seen this happen... nor has anyone...

concepts don't cause feelings to arise... and feelings don't cause concepts to arise...

their mutual arising is a mystery... at least to the knowing and the senses... to awareness...

to 'power' it is no mystery at all...

but then again... 'power' does not exist...

just like 'consciousness'... :D

and yet so plain...

Love
I don't really disagree, michael; I know what you're saying, (I think?)...

But, I was trying to point to some other angle of understanding.....

It just seems that we're talking about two different definitions, two different meanings/understandings of the same word, (damned English :evil:) ... or two different aspects(concepts?) of the word/emotion "fear."

But again, admittedly I'm just not so good at explaining it.

But oh, if I could only articulate it... well, that would probably be a very interesting discussion. ;)


Love
darling maple3... perhaps you are just saying that as fear is felt... it is immediate... no interpretation...

yes... just so...

just as the meaning of the word 'sunrise' is recognised immediately the word is seen... no interpretation... no analysis...

just as the same meaning is recognised instantly... as the sun appears on the horizon at dawn... no interpretation... no analysis...

but this forum affords the opportunity to put into words what is 'sensed' and 'known'...

and to reference this that is 'beyond both'... (though there is no 'beyond'... except this that is 'beyond conceiving of it' and 'beyond sensing of it' :roll: )

so here there is talk of 'consciousness'... and 'apperception' ... and 'tao'... and 'senses/sensations' and 'knowing/known'...

and also beautiful quotations about...

"Things are not what they seem;
nor are they otherwise"... :D

ANNA shows a picture of a 'landscape' viewed from the window of a plane...

the landscape is the landscape as it is observed... no interpretation... no analysis... it is recognised the instant it appears...

and yet... it is clear the only 'place' that particular landscape exists is from that specific perspective... at that specific time...

'on the ground'.. the 'same' landscape appears quite different... and different again as it seen out the window of a satellite...

these 'apparent landscapes' change moment by moment... as the 'viewpoint' changes... so that what appeared 'small' (a mountain in the distance) now appears large (as the viewpoint apparently moves closer)...

so what is the 'real' landscape... that apparently seen 'close up' on the ground... or that apparently seen from the plane... or that apparently seen from the satellite...

or some 'other' landscape that is not seen at all...

the landscape that is conceived to be on the surface of a 'sphere'...

with 'mountains' and 'valleys' and 'rivers' and 'plains' and 'seas' conceived to have relative sizes and shapes that remain (relatively) fixed for (relatively) long periods of time...

clearly... this 'whole earth' has never been seen... it is a pure concept...

and yet it is... the only 'real earth' there is... for 'it' exists independant of the viewpoint...

in simple language... it is 'Gods earth'... the earth conceived as a whole...

with all its 'atmospheric' and 'geologic' and other 'processes'... its 'plants and animals' (including humans)... and all 'devices and structures' built upon it...

it is part of the 'universal conception' that includes the 'whole universe'...

toombaru would call it 'the substantial earth'... but such 'substance' is itself a concept... for it has never been seen...

this conception includes the form of the earth and all 'objects' and 'creatures' on it this moment...

every moment...

on all scales in all places and all times...

the 'entire form' each moment conceived in its entirety... forever unchanged...

this conception is immeasurably vast... it is all possibilities...

it includes the conception of 'substance' (energy-matter) and all the 'qualities' of 'things' (colour resonance.. etc)... and all 'meaning'...

and how it appears from the perspective of each creature...

so... when it is viewed from the perspective of a creature conceived to be 'living in the world'... the appearance is mediated by the 'conceived sensory inputs' and 'conceived resulting brain states of the creature'...

so.. for example... though the form in 'God's world' is a 'rope'... when seen from the perspective of a specific person... it is seen (for a moment) as a 'snake...

there is no actual 'creature' mistaking the rope for a snake...

it is all conception... given apparent momentary substance through sensations that image the 'form'...

together with the concept 'snake'... (unspoken/unthought in the moment of immediate recognition)... 'quickly' replaced by the concept 'rope'...

so it appears "Oh it was not a snake... I was mistaken... it was only a rope'...

though of course there is no mistake...

in the moment it appears to be a 'snake'... that is the particular conception...
and in the moment it is recognised as 'rope'... that is the particular conception...

all the while... the form is conceived universally (ie from 'God's perspective') to be 'rope'...

there is no separate god in whose mind the universal conception exists...

just as there is no separate creature in whose mind the particular conception exists...

each 'particular conception' is part of the 'universal conception'... it is one conception... one with this knowing of it... forever unchanged...

one with this awareness... in which the conception is imaged (manifested through sensations)... from each 'particular perspective'... one perspective at a time... one moment at a time...

this 'apparent world' appears to change 'moment by moment' as 'things are conceived to move'... and as the 'viewpoint is conceived to change'...

as imaged through sensations...

though no thing ever changes...

and nothing has ever happened...

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
awakening
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Post by awakening » Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:48 pm

or some 'other' landscape that is not seen at all...

the landscape that is conceived to be on the surface of a 'sphere'...

with 'mountains' and 'valleys' and 'rivers' and 'plains' and 'seas' conceived to have relative sizes and shapes that remain (relatively) fixed for (relatively) long periods of time...

clearly... this 'whole earth' has never been seen... it is a pure concept...

and yet it is... the only 'real earth' there is... for 'it' exists independant of the viewpoint...

in simple language... it is 'Gods earth'... the earth conceived as a whole...



Ahh..the poet emerges... :wink:


michael
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Post by michael » Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:49 pm

awakening wrote:or some 'other' landscape that is not seen at all...

the landscape that is conceived to be on the surface of a 'sphere'...

with 'mountains' and 'valleys' and 'rivers' and 'plains' and 'seas' conceived to have relative sizes and shapes that remain (relatively) fixed for (relatively) long periods of time...

clearly... this 'whole earth' has never been seen... it is a pure concept...

and yet it is... the only 'real earth' there is... for 'it' exists independant of the viewpoint...

in simple language... it is 'Gods earth'... the earth conceived as a whole...



Ahh..the poet emerges... :wink:


only your own heart singing dear One... :D

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
sunyaakash
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Post by sunyaakash » Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:53 pm

Dear Awakening ,

Good to hear about "Gods earth ".

Continue to have a wonder filled time .


Good day .


S
awakening
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Post by awakening » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:20 pm

sunyaakash wrote:Dear Awakening ,

Good to hear about "Gods earth ".

Continue to have a wonder filled time .


Good day .


S
You too dear One,
but I should have made it more clear perhaps
that the words in 'my' posting
were actually lifted from Michael's posting...

But he -yet not he-
generously ascribes them
to One only. :wink:

empty-and-full
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Post by empty-and-full » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:01 pm

Leo wrote:
Does anyone feel that at times our discussions here get too abstract?

There is no this,
there is no that,
only as imagined,
and so on....

All true to some extent
and useful as pointers at some times
but this means nothing when fear jumps in...
imagined or real...
Most of what is talked about here is useless to the separate person, when fear arises or some other emotion arises, it dominates...until it doesn't. But who would or could want it to be otherwise?

Life goes on.

Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
:)
awakening
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Post by awakening » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:14 pm

empty-and-full wrote:Leo wrote:
Does anyone feel that at times our discussions here get too abstract?

There is no this,
there is no that,
only as imagined,
and so on....

All true to some extent
and useful as pointers at some times
but this means nothing when fear jumps in...
imagined or real...
Most of what is talked about here is useless to the separate person, when fear arises or some other emotion arises, it dominates...until it doesn't. But who would or could want it to be otherwise?

Life goes on.


Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
Yes it is...
for it to be useful to a separate person
there first would have to be such a separate person.

But when the idea of 'a separate person'
or 'the wanting for things to be different' arises
then that is how it is.

Wadayagonado? :roll: :wink:

Hatima
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Post by Hatima » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:15 pm

awakening wrote:Doe anyone feel that at times our discussions here get too abstract?

There is no this,
there is no that,
only as imagined,
and so on....

All true to some extent
and useful as pointers at some times
but this means nothing when fear jumps in...
imagined or real...

Or to paraphrase Forest Gump
"The body is as the body does."

And when there are too many 'there is no.... postings' for Leo's taste
he digs up the same ol' words that always come to mind at such times..

"Thirty years ago, before I practiced [Zen], I saw that mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. However, after having achieved intimate knowledge and having gotten a way in, I saw that mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have found rest, as before, I see mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers."

Zen master Quingyuan, describing 'his' insight The Compendium of Five Lamps "


*****************************************************

KYE HO! Wonderful!
You may say "existence," but you can't grasp it!
You may say "non-existence" but many things appear!
It is beyond the sky of "existence" and "non-existence" --
I know it but cannot point to it!

From Tantric Buddhist Women's Songs (8th - 11th c.)


***************************************

The nature of phenomena is nondual,
but each one, in its own state,
is beyond the limits of the mind.
There is no concept that can define
the condition of "what is"
but vision nevertheless manifests:
all is good.

From; "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu



***************************************

Things are not what they seem;
nor are they otherwise.

~ Lankavatara Sutra ~



Agreed here, Leo. Some of the discussions are hard to follow.
You would need to be talking face to face to try and get a
handle on the arguments. Its hard to make sense of them
at times because its hard to figure what the intention is
behind the words written. Although I really enjoyed the
discussion between michael and maple3 on fear.
Now I wonder is michael writing any poetry
:!: :) :?:
maple3
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Post by maple3 » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:47 pm

michael wrote:darling maple3... perhaps you are just saying that as fear is felt... it is immediate... no interpretation...

yes... just so...

just as the meaning of the word 'sunrise' is recognised immediately the word is seen... no interpretation... no analysis...

just as the same meaning is recognised instantly... as the sun appears on the horizon at dawn... no interpretation... no analysis...
Yes, michael... something like that :D...

And it's very amazing when you switch sides (so to speak) to explain what I'm trying to say to you. 8)

Sufferers of PTSD look at the phenomenon of fear a lot, because they(we) have to learn to cope with an ongoing irrational fear that seems to have its own agenda. When fear is connected with PTSD it seems clearly obvious that the revisited fear is triggered by a past "thought," a memory, but it is also even more obvious that fear-based PTSD is also completely disconnected from any thought whatsoever about that same past memory. It's for those reasons that it's totally confusing to the PTSD sufferer, (and almost impossible to explain it to a non-sufferer). There is no easy way to explain the paradox that a past memory is, and also isn't, the cause of a PTSD episode. (But oddly, many posts in this forum do seem to point directly towards that same paradox.)
michael wrote:there is no actual 'creature' mistaking the rope for a snake...
The "rope is a snake" analogy is another good one in this instance. Can anyone imagine seeing a rope, and cognitively recognizing it as a rope, but still having a persistent organic/biological response of fear as if that rope is really a snake? Clear SEEing doesn't necessarily change those types of persistent biological emotional fear-based responses. Although exploring, recognizing, and understanding non-duality might resolve some useless layers of me-ness fears, it also might not.

But hey, since E&F indicated that michael wrote exactly what E&F had been trying to describe, so of course it's all good. And there are no actual disagreement from maple3 about what michael wrote. Besides, maple3 still likes reading michael's writing too. [ok] :D
Hatima wrote:Although I really enjoyed the
discussion between michael and maple3 on fear.
Yeah, I kinda enjoyed myself ;) :D...
Hatima wrote:Now I wonder is michael writing any poetry
:!: :) :?:
Yes, absolutely... and michael's "poetry" is always a nice bonus, no matter what "side" of the writing he's on. [ok]


Love
jeff j
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Post by jeff j » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:07 pm

it's strange that fear,
like pain
is suffering...
or at least when it's not chosen...
like PTSD for example,
the chooser suffers from lack of choice:

this seems to build and ride on the
assumption (reality) of "the chooser"...
seems like we're talkin' about the same thing
again :?
be yourself, the real fictional character?
jeff j
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Post by jeff j » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:10 pm

who is suffering?

:?
be yourself, the real fictional character?
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Post by toombaru » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:32 pm

jeff j wrote:who is suffering?

:?



Life is half suffering.........three quarters joy.


toombaru
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Post by empty-and-full » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:08 pm

toombaru wrote:
jeff j wrote:who is suffering?

:?



Life is half suffering.........three quarters joy.


toombaru
Life is wholly your interpretation of it. :D
:)
toombaru
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Post by toombaru » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:37 pm

empty-and-full wrote:
toombaru wrote:
jeff j wrote:who is suffering?

:?



Life is half suffering.........three quarters joy.


toombaru
Life is wholly your interpretation of it. :D


For the sense of separation........that is true.

If there is something outside of itself.....the self can never know it.





toombaru
epi
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Post by epi » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:38 pm

if one is not afraid ...to be afriad...

then, like a self cancelling turn signal ....

the event .... comes to a halt.

the double dissapppears
“The mind is everything... What you think... you become” ...Buddha
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