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Tony Parsons' leg amputation
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1065
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
In fact, I've amended the posting (again!!!) to recognise that even I'm not real Very Happy

Well, of course, this kind of thing happens because you're obviously caught in that "no-end insight." Cool


[Oh confetti thoughts, yet again. Rolling Eyes ]



Love
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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:


"Beam me up scotty" Very Happy

Love


Actually, Scotty HAS been "beamed up"
Razz
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sara



Joined: 21 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maple3 wrote:

Saramazing, do you just sit at the computer typing and giggling at yourself? Laughing

So why do I now have such a deep longing for Star Trek reruns? Aiyee! Rolling Eyes

Love


Laughing


"deep longing"? Oh, dear: yer in the 'tiger's mouth' now! Cool

Confession story: remember the cute, cuddly, giggling, purring little tribbles? Born pregnant and great fun as long as they are not fed! But they eat stuff that most species would never go near. They can't help it....they just gotta devour everything.

As Spock said, "A peculiar mutation resulted from the substance that they consumed."

Well, it's too late for the 'tribbles' here: mutation has taken place and there's nothing that can be done except to let everything take it's 'course'.


Oh, and by the way, wanna know 3 ways to kill a tribble? Twisted Evil

1) Beam it to a Klingon ship (we got some Klingons on board here, so there must be a ship nearby).

2) Shove it in a room with Tony Parsons, a tiger and some swords. Razz Lock the door from the 'outside'.

3)Read it some haikus till it gives up the ghost.


love,
sarable
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godindrag



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael,
A lot of this much tinkered with post is beautiful but some of it is weird Laughing Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Now (without moving your eyes) extend your arm and hand so your hand is out in front, fingers up and palm facing away. Look at it. Now slowly turn your hand. Watching closely, observe how the shape changes. Has your hand really changed shape? You ‘know’ it has not. This ‘knowing’, can you ‘see it’, or do you just ‘know it’? This ‘knowing’ is not a ‘thing’. You are this knowing, that knows. This is no theory… you know it!

Any thing that changes, while the object is known to be unchanged cannot be real. What changes is merely an image. It is formed of colours in the visual field.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here...
How could this knowing that the hand hasn't changed shape be anything but an idea? - Albeit a reasonable and useful one Laughing
All there is is the image.
Where is the object?
Where is the object which is known to be unchanged?
Just an idea of an unchanged object in defiance of the actuality which is 'changing shape happening in the only 'that' which doesn't change - Nothing'.

Weird, this heavy clingy sticky static knowing meaning stuff you keep referring to... Question

Yours,
Lazily unstuck,
gid.
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godindrag



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DaveK

There is no awakening. Only Awakeness.

There's just life Happening as it is 'for you'. There is no how it is 'for Tony' or anyone else. Or if there were, how could you possibly know, so who cares?
There may be completely different perspectives and stories happening in which experiences or events happen and are labelled 'awakening' or whatever... So what? Where are these perspectives and events?

I'm sure all sorts of events could be induced by all sorts of practises, from taking drugs to pointing at yourself or spinning in your chair to try and notice some 'static field'. All events have a beginning and an end. Tony's event was not liberation - he said liberation was realising that there is only liberation and the seeming 'meing' as well as 'being' is also IT.

So there only ever is life happening by itself in nothingness. Life and nothingness are one. This is the case already. So what can 'When I awaken' possibly mean? When the idea that there isn't already 100% awakeness is grudgingly admitted to as being nonsense? That would just be a different story...

And what good does that do you? Short answer is none at all.
Long answer is it doesn't satisfy the need for an owned personal state which is preferable to the current one, but in absolute defeat and despair there is relief and lightness... nothing dramatic.

...And that's just a story. There is only what 'you' are aware of. Now.
And it is not 'you' that are aware, because there is also awareness of what is labelled 'you'...

Told myself I wouldn't post again, but I'm at work and bored Wink

gid.
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maple3 wrote:
[Well, of course, this kind of thing happens because you're obviously caught in that "no-end insight." Cool


[Oh confetti thoughts, yet again. Rolling Eyes ]

Love


Now this is seriously funny Very Happy

maple3, why do I love thee, let me count the ways:

"no-end insight" Very Happy

Love
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

godindrag wrote:
Michael,
A lot of this much tinkered with post is beautiful but some of it is weird Laughing Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Now (without moving your eyes) extend your arm and hand so your hand is out in front, fingers up and palm facing away. Look at it. Now slowly turn your hand. Watching closely, observe how the shape changes. Has your hand really changed shape? You ‘know’ it has not. This ‘knowing’, can you ‘see it’, or do you just ‘know it’? This ‘knowing’ is not a ‘thing’. You are this knowing, that knows. This is no theory… you know it!

Any thing that changes, while the object is known to be unchanged cannot be real. What changes is merely an image. It is formed of colours in the visual field.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here...
How could this knowing that the hand hasn't changed shape be anything but an idea? - Albeit a reasonable and useful one Laughing
All there is is the image.
Where is the object?
Where is the object which is known to be unchanged?
Just an idea of an unchanged object in defiance of the actuality which is 'changing shape happening in the only 'that' which doesn't change - Nothing'.

Yours,
Lazily unstuck,
gid.


This is it!

The 'known' object is just that... an idea!

Everything 'known' is... an 'idea'... meaning.

'Things' appear only as they are 'known'. In the absence of 'knowing/meaning' there is only pure sensation... meaningless.

This is 'self evident'... all else is theory... ideas... meaning Very Happy

Love
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godindrag



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy,
Ooo err ummm aaah Razz
Quote:

This is it!


Mmmmm...

Quote:

The 'known' object is just that... an idea!


Right...

Quote:

Everything 'known' is... an 'idea'... meaning.


So-called 'meaningless sensation' can be known (cognized / registered) but that's not how you're using the word, so ok...

'
Quote:

Things' appear only as they are 'known'. In the absence of 'knowing/meaning' there is only pure sensation... meaningless.


Even in the presence of 'knowing/meaning' there is only pure sensation... neither meaningless nor meaningful.
To be meaningless is to have the meaning: 'meaningless' Laughing

Thoughts/ideas/ which seem to 'give' meaning to pure sensation, are just more pure sensation/vibration/energy/perception.

Even the idea of 'meaning' is just sensation/vibration/energy/perception

Quote:
This is 'self evident'... all else is theory... ideas... meaning


Anything that is said is theory/ideas/meaning.
Ultimately just sensation/vibration/energy/perception - neither meaningful nor meaningless.

So anyway, why did you emphasize the 'known object idea' in relation to the hand in the previous post? There is the idea of a hand which doesn't change shape when it moves. This idea, this meaning, this theory of course is reasonable and useful but why did you say:

Quote:

You ‘know’ it has not. This ‘knowing’, can you ‘see it’, or do you just ‘know it’? This ‘knowing’ is not a ‘thing’. You are this knowing, that knows. This is no theory… you know it!


Of course it's a theory!
"This knowing is not a thing", Er no, it isn't... Again forgive me if I miss your point but to me this language seems to mix up direct cognizing with belief in an idea. A belief, just like the belief in past, future, other perspectives etc.
Nothing wrong with this belief, I just find it bizarre that you emphasize this in this context.
What you are (DaveK) is the blank featureless empty impersonal registering of all sensation including thought which is neither meaningless nor meaningful.
If you move your hand, what you are is the blank featureless empty impersonal registering of image, sensation, sound, taste, smell, thought - which may appear as 'I know my hand hasn't changed shape' 'Fly low by land fastened strange ape' or 'I feel stupid' - none of which have any more or less relevance to what you are - which as well as the registering, is all that is registered - they are 'not two' as they say Smile

Tra la la...
gid
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A battle of concepts of concepts Very Happy

This that is now aware of these words as they are seemingly read... is it.

What is it? ... no idea Very Happy

godindrag wrote:
So-called 'meaningless sensation' can be known (cognized / registered) but that's not how you're using the word, so ok...


Seeing/colours... one
Hearing/sounds... one
Feeling/feelings... one
Tasting/flavours... one
Smelling/odours...one
Knowing/meaning...one

godindrag wrote:
Even in the presence of 'knowing/meaning' there is only pure sensation... neither meaningless nor meaningful.
To be meaningless is to have the meaning: 'meaningless' Laughing


Yes 'meaningless' is a concept... a concept that is used to 'point' to that which is directly sensed: colours, sounds, feelings, tastes and odours.

Seeing a coloured pattern which is seen as simply 'colour' (no concept in mind.. the direct experience) no 'thing' appears... which is to say there is just 'pure sensation'... no 'meaning' attached (not even the meaning 'colour' or 'seeing')... meaning(less) Very Happy

'
godindrag wrote:
Thoughts/ideas/ which seem to 'give' meaning to pure sensation, are just more pure sensation/vibration/energy/perception.

Even the idea of 'meaning' is just sensation/vibration/energy/perception


This is just more concepts... the basis of any sensation/knowing cannot be sensed nor known... 'self evident' Very Happy

Love
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godindrag



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A battle of concepts of concepts


Oh dear, no no battle Laughing
Just questions to try and understand your expression via concepts.
Questions (concepts) which remain unaddressed and avoided because your reply is simply that my concepts are just more concepts.
Oh well... yes your concepts are concepts and so are mine... so...??

There isn't any difference between pure sensation with meaning 'attached' and pure sensation without meaning 'attached' because meaning is just more pure sensation, not something else which is 'attached'.

There seems to be a difference 'in the story', but the point is that ultimately - or absolutely - there isn't. Weird, innit? Laughing

Quote:

Yes 'meaningless' is a concept... a concept that is used to 'point' to that which is directly sensed: colours, sounds, feelings, tastes and odours


You seem to put thought or meaning in a category distinct from 'what is directly sensed' as if thought weren't directly sensed.

Within the story/appearance, thought is odd weird and tricky and seems to shape/ transform/ govern the other sensations. An enjoyable game on autopilot, seemingly whipping up an illusion of tension, drama and play out of inert automatic unrelated appearances.

Meaning or the lack of it (more meaning) is in the game.
Beyond the game, thought / meaning is just more sensation happening.

Interesting (hilarious) that you see this point only as conceptual - "just more concepts"

Quote:
This that is now aware of these words as they are seemingly read... is it.

What is it? ... no idea


Indeedy... Smile

Quote:

the basis of any sensation/knowing cannot be sensed nor known... 'self evident'


This is just more concepts!!
Twisted Evil
la la la...xxx
gid
... so about DaveK's hand.... Twisted Evil Laughing Laughing
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilesover there is any meaning read into what appears as these postings, it is all concepts battling concepts... one idea opposing another... useless. Very Happy

That to which the concepts: "seeing/colours, hearing/sounds, feeling/feelings, smelling/odours, tasting/flavours and knowing/meaning (collectively called 'consciousness)" points, is the 'reality'... 'self evident'... evident to 'self' (consciousness) Very Happy ... plain simple clear no argument, no one to argue with. Very Happy

'Consciousness' has no need of concepts to point to that which is 'consciousness'. Cool

It's play... another idea Very Happy

godindrag wrote:
There isn't any difference between pure sensation with meaning 'attached' and pure sensation without meaning 'attached' because meaning is just more pure sensation, not something else which is 'attached'.


Yes, attached is not a good pointer. Yet no 'thing' is 'seen' apart from 'colour, nor 'smelled' apart from 'odour', nor 'tasted' apart from 'flavour', nor 'heard' apart from 'sound', nor 'felt' apart from 'feelings'.

'What' 'things' these collective sensations appear to be in any apparent moment is purely the meaning that is 'ascribed' to them... (not much better than 'attached' as a pointer Crying or Very sad )... but it seems there is no better sign post arising in this apparent moment Cool

'Self evident': all sensations and meaning arise separately: colour independent of sound, sound independent of feeling, and so for all the senses. (That is 'colour' is not 'sound', nor the 'cause of sound'... colour and sound appear separately. 'See 'colour', 'hear no sound'. 'Hear sound', See no colour')

So too do each of the sensations (colour, etc.) arise separately from meaning.

'See colours, hear sounds, know no meaning': expressed as "what the f... is that" Very Happy Meaning arises it appears that an 'object' is seen/heard, expressed as 'Oh it's the boys throwing bottles at a rock in the bushes'".

The 'expressions' are not the experience... they simply point to the experience. The experience itself includes the immediately apparent sensations and meaning (or lack of it) that arises in the (apparent) moment:

In one 'moment' the colours and sounds appear as just 'bushes moving and darting shadows and strange sounds'... (even this experience is 'meaningful'). The next moment the same colours and sounds appear as 'boys throwing bottles in the bushes'... this experience requires no 'thought' to make it appear so... though the thought may also come that expresses the experience.

It is like the 'rope and snake'. Same colours seen, different meaning arising/remembered (not 'thought')... but direct awareness of the meaning so it appears at one moment the colours are a snake and the next they appear as a rope. Same colours different meaning.

Look around the room that you now appear to be in. In a single glance, the whole scene is 'known'... no words or thougths required to describe it... indeed impossible to describe the 'whole' experience. It is this 'knowing that which is known' that is being pointed to.

What is 'seen' are only colours (as in a dream). Any 'things' that these colours appear to be, is the meaning that is in awareness.

Self evident: together sensations and meaning form a momentary 'experience' that appears to be 'indivisible', creating the appearance of a 'world' where there is none.

Wonder of wonders. Very Happy

godindrag wrote:
There seems to be a difference 'in the story', but the point is that ultimately - or absolutely - there isn't. Weird, innit? Laughing


Yep

godindrag wrote:
You seem to put thought or meaning in a category distinct from 'what is directly sensed' as if thought weren't directly sensed.


Thought is only one expression of 'knowing meaning'. It appears as a 'subtle sound'. This 'sound' appears to be a 'voice' speaking words that are 'meaningful'.

As discussed in other posts, no 'sound' ('subtle' or otherwise), nor any 'marks' are themselves meaningful. The example given is the 'marks' 'dog' and 'le chien' ('dog' in french)... different marks and different sounds... same meaning!

Most meaning known is apparent in the whole experience... it is that which is known when a whole scene apppears 'familiar'... as looking at a beautiful mountain landscape... no thoughts, completely still. While it appears that there is 'looking at a beautiful landscape', there is meaning in awareness.

In the absence of meaning, what 'thing' is there to see?

godindrag wrote:
Within the story/appearance, thought is odd weird and tricky and seems to shape/ transform/ govern the other sensations. An enjoyable game on autopilot, seemingly whipping up an illusion of tension, drama and play out of inert automatic unrelated appearances.

Meaning or the lack of it (more meaning) is in the game.
Beyond the game, thought / meaning is just more sensation happening.


Purely a matter of semantics... you call meaning sensation, I call it meaning... it is that which is known.

godindrag wrote:
Interesting (hilarious) that you see this point only as conceptual - "just more concepts"


It is even funnier that 'you' and 'I' seem to be arguing exactly the same point... but it is really only one concept seemingly opposing another Very Happy

godindrag wrote:
Quote:
...the basis of any sensation/knowing cannot be sensed nor known... 'self evident'


This is just more concepts!!


If you think about it
Twisted Evil
la la la...xxx

Forget about David's hand. Look at your own... what do you see? Describe it. Not just the shape but ‘what’ it is. What is a ‘hand’? Impossible to describe in words, yet it is known!

Turn your hand and look at it. What do you see? Does it appear different to the shape you saw before? Is the 'meaning' 'hand' (not the word, but that which is known) the same... even though the shape appears to be different?

Close your eyes, what/where is the hand that is no longer seen?

Looking at exactly the same appearance, see it from the perspective of a fly. What ‘thing’ does the ‘hand’ now seem to be? Yes, this is just a conceptual game. But it points to that which is beyond concept, to that which knows all concepts/meaning.

Enjoy your game.

Love
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sara wrote:
maple3 wrote:

Saramazing, do you just sit at the computer typing and giggling at yourself? Laughing

So why do I now have such a deep longing for Star Trek reruns? Aiyee! Rolling Eyes

Love


Laughing


"deep longing"? Oh, dear: yer in the 'tiger's mouth' now! Cool

Ya know, I've come to realize that it was always that way. Thinking... when has my head not been in the tiger's mouth? Since never, really. At least that explains the reason I need therapy. Rolling Eyes Wink

sara wrote:
Confession story: remember the cute, cuddly, giggling, purring little tribbles? Born pregnant and great fun as long as they are not fed! But they eat stuff that most species would never go near. They can't help it....they just gotta devour everything.

As Spock said, "A peculiar mutation resulted from the substance that they consumed."

Well, it's too late for the 'tribbles' here: mutation has taken place and there's nothing that can be done except to let everything take it's 'course'.


Oh, and by the way, wanna know 3 ways to kill a tribble? Twisted Evil

1) Beam it to a Klingon ship (we got some Klingons on board here, so there must be a ship nearby).

2) Shove it in a room with Tony Parsons, a tiger and some swords. Razz Lock the door from the 'outside'.

3)Read it some haikus till it gives up the ghost.


love,
sarable

Ah yes, a "love sarable"... it seems the very best kind. Very Happy

I've read this about 7, 8, 9 times and each time I laugh just as much as the first time. So, how the heck does that happen? Surprised Very Happy
I mean, isn't laughter something that happens like a sneak attack?

And saratrekkie... wow, you must have memorized all the scripts to all of these episodes?! Surprised


Love
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
maple3 wrote:
[Well, of course, this kind of thing happens because you're obviously caught in that "no-end insight." Cool


[Oh confetti thoughts, yet again. Rolling Eyes ]

Love


Now this is seriously funny Very Happy

maple3, why do I love thee, let me count the ways:

"no-end insight" Very Happy


Ah yes, michael, I do SEE what you mean... Very Happy

And you still have such a clever way of throwing words right back in this direction.

And I'm thinking of a fun and funny post ("no end in sight") that I really wished I had saved, darn! Sad

"no-end insight"... of course you already know that's somewhat similar to, (and also somewhat different from) "no end in sight" ... Oh, how I love "tinkering" with those hyphens and spaces, hehe. Wink

And "no end in sight" even has more than one perspective, depending on whether "sight" is regarded as "the function of seeing" or as "that which is seen" or maybe even "the time or distance of the function of seeing." And as usual, it's still unavoidably "in the eye of the beholder."

Hey!... whether it's "no-end insight" or "no end in sight" it's still clearly "out of sight." Shocked


Love
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michael



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi maple3, the way sara expresses herself, I reckon she's lost her head Very Happy

And with all that giggling, I'm sure you've also 'laughed your head off' too Laughing

In case either of you wanted it back, I did have a look, but I'm sorry to say I couldn't find any head here either.

Perhaps the Klingons got them, or 'the zombies'... there's plenty of 'zombie' heads here to see, but I suppose you've enough of those your 'self'... enough to fill a zombie world Rolling Eyes

Love
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michael



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the way you just expressed your last post... definitely lost your head. Wink Very Happy

Love
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