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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: no me Reply with quote

I’ve often read that awakening leads to realization that YOU are IT
That there is only you and you are all.
Not you, sam jones, of course,
But you, the source, that which is the source of all.
Perhaps I missed the boat
Or fell through the boat
But I had this realization in mid- 2004 and wrote “Elephants into Mice” to express this.
But when I awoke, this is not what appeared.
What appeared is that there is no I, no Me, no one here
No here no now
There is only the appearance of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, body sensations and thoughts
But, no one to do the perceiving.
Even the idea that all this appears in awareness, which I can accept, can lead to the idea that awareness is aware of what arises
I don’t see this as so.
Awareness is, and all that appears is awareness and therefore “self” awareness is a property of it.
If clay were aware, then whatever form it was shaped into, it would be aware as the form, not of the form.
Yes, I can see that implication, the inference that absolute reality, pure awareness is unmoving, no light, no sound, no thing and that movement, light, sound, things appears against it
But isn’t this even giving in a bit? Isn’t this still looking away from the brutal reality of the pointer, it is still entertaining the idea of “contrast” – which is a dualistic concept
Yet, in oneness, in nothingness,
There is not even the contrast.
Is this not all what appears, is caused when dualistic language is used to describe that which cannot be described? The pointer: all appearances, all existence are illusions, are mere reflections of that which does not exist?
No matter how closely we shave it,
It’s not it
So, there is the appearance of meaninig, of understanding, of seeing.
But there is no meaning, understanding or seeing
Whatever you think it is, it isn’t
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi 'nome' Very Happy

Any meaningful 'thought', 'word' 'idea' never comes close.

So of course on a forum of words thought to convey only meaning, the only expression that seems true is: 'there is no meaning, understanding or seeing'.

To a 'blind man' 'seeing' is a meaningless word, as is 'meaning/understanding' to an 'idiot'.

These words cannot be understood. They have no meaning. They simply point to the reality.

The reality is in no need of words to be what it is. It requires no validation or proof.

Here is seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling, hearing and knowing... all meaningless words Very Happy

Love
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awakening
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Joined: 12 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi NoMe (Good one Michael Very Happy )

As it is seen from here, it makes no difference how the pointing is done. Whether we say the ‘I’ has disappeared or whether we say “I am all that is.” they are both conceptual pointers to the Is/IsNot prior to the duality of being/non-being.

When the penny drops the words served their purpose and can be forgotten –or played with as we do on this forum. Ooops no doers here of course... those darn words trip me up (and out) every time.

You might enjoy these quotes:

Love says "I am everything".
Wisdom says "I am nothing".


~ Nisargadatta ~
------------------------------------------

Or we could replace the words ‘form and emptiness’ in the next quote with ‘being and non being.

Form does not differ from emptiness
emptiness does not differ from form
form itself is emptiness
emptiness itself is form
so too are feeling cognition
formation and consciousness.


~ Heart Sutra ~
------------------------------------------

The nature of phenomena is nondual,
but each one, in its own state,
is beyond the limits of the mind.
There is no concept that can define
the condition of "what is"
but vision nevertheless manifests:
all is good.


~ Chogyal Namkhai Norbu ~

------------------------------------------
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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...leaving wonderment at the mystery of it all
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Wonderment'... the experience you have when you're not having an experience Cool

Love
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
Love says "I am everything".
Wisdom says "I am nothing".


~ Nisargadatta ~


Multiple choice!... Yay! Laughing

Wink


Love
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi maple3... nice to see your smiling face again.

What a bummer: Multiple Choice... and no one to choose. Crying or Very sad

Fortunately there's no one here Shocked

And no one chooses Love and Wisdom Very Happy

What nonsense Cool

Love
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
What a bummer...

A bummer?... oohh, not necessarily... (is this like multiple choice again? Wink )

The thing is... yeah, sometimes it's a "bummer" (or seems so)...

And then other times... well... it's downright hilarious. Laughing

And it's especially odd when it seems to be simultaneously "a bummer" and "hilarious" all at once. ... (hey, ever cry and laugh at the same time? ... it's real weird. Rolling Eyes )

But yeah, I know what you meant...
It's just that... if I pretend I don't know what you're talking about, we can keep this up for a very long time... Rolling Eyes Smile


michael wrote:
Multiple Choice... and no one to choose. Crying or Very sad

Fortunately there's no one here Shocked

And no one chooses Love and Wisdom Very Happy

What nonsense Cool


Indeed... I was sitting in a Walmart snack shop watching a bunch of very sad no-bodies doing no-thing... but wow, it truly seemed as if they/I/we were a bunch of some-bodies actually doing some-thing. Rolling Eyes


Love
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awakening
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maple3 wrote:

Multiple choice!... Yay! Laughing

Wink
Love


Sweet Very Happy
And bitter Crying or Very sad
Bitter-Sweet
and beyond.

"gate, gate, paragate - parasamgate, bodhi svaha."

"gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, so be it,"


No one left and nowhere to go.
Nowhere...
Now-here...
Mystery....
Wonderment....
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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Leo, good Nisy - both are experienced & both are equally true and false

ah...the old Great Heart of Wisdom Sutra - chanted for years during Zazen practice without a "clue" what it pointed to.
the end of the sutra says:
gone to the other shore, beyond the other shore
having never left

what fun
& really like the last quote

Razz
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sara



Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 903
Location: below sea level

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

awakening wrote:
Hi NoMe (Good one Michael Very Happy )

As it is seen from here, it makes no difference how the pointing is done. Whether we say the ‘I’ has disappeared or whether we say “I am all that is.” they are both conceptual pointers to the Is/IsNot prior to the duality of being/non-being.

When the penny drops the words served their purpose and can be forgotten –or played with as we do on this forum.


So......what is experiencing through 'nemo' is noMe, eh? Wink


Also, experientially, NOT intellectually:

What are you when 'leo' completely disappears? Are you nothing? And, if so, is this nothing experienced by nothing? Is this experiencing what you are? Or is what you really are life....awake and shimmeringly alive?

What am I when 'sara' vanishes? What is it that is animating this, admittedly joyous and gorgeous Very Happy, entity? She can explain it (when sara seemingly sort of returns) with lots of colourful adjectives and sounds from what she 'remembers', but that is just another story! So what is really true is that when we totally disappear, there is actually nothing at all, not even "presence," and we just 'think' there was experiencing? Shocked


So grateful to have this forum to play in!!! Very Happy

love,
sara-boggled Confused
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awakening
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sara wrote:

What are you when 'leo' completely disappears?


The answer is on the tip of my tongue, but when I want to say it it slips away again. Very Happy

Perhaps I am nothing at all Sara; the same no-thing that is/is not appearing as you too.

Do you hear that song in the background?

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g’joob.
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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sara,

there is no experienced BY

as this ("BY") still holds an element of duality

I would say there is no entity being animated (the idea of an animatinng presence is a teaching device and must be abandonded at some point)
There may be an appeareance of an entity - but does that mean there is an entity?
There may be the appearance of a reflection or shadow - but do they exist?
I cannot speak for Leo, but there is no Nemo to disspear! Nemo never existed and neither does sara! While thoughts, perceptions and sensations appear to appear (sorry Wink ) that does not mean there is anyone here.

from the context of the original post I would day there is only an experience, and a story called leo (or sara, or nemo). Currently there is a reluctance to use "I" or to say "i am ....anything (or nothing)"

joe
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fox



Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 821
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yet, in oneness, in nothingness,
There is not even the contrast.



aehmmm

that means: The oneness can never be experienced by somebody.

Even worse - there is nobody there to experience oneness.

Damn, even worse than that:
There is nobody there to experience nothing at all!!


Question
Confused
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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Fox:

that means: The oneness can never be experienced by somebody.
>> Examine what the statement implies: implicit subject-object, so : No


Even worse - there is nobody there to experience oneness.
>> again - notice the implicit assumption of a separate observer

Damn, even worse than that:

that means: The oneness can never be experienced by somebody.

>>I'll go even further: experience cannot be experienced
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