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awakening
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:

the only 'little thing' I might quibble about is the word 'word'...

for these marks that appear as 'words' are not actually 'concepts'...
they 'symbolise' or stand for 'concepts' which can never be seen (or sensed in any way)... they are only ever known...

it is why 'different marks' (eg 'dog' and 'le chien') can symbolise the 'same concept' (no concept of 'what' a 'concept' 'is'... except that it is 'known' (no concept of 'what' 'known' 'is'))...

if you get my Drift(er)... smile

but regardless...

definitely the same...

Love


Hi Michael

As so often it seems to be about semantics with us.
I looked up 'concept' in the dictionary. It says: "An abstract or general idea inferred or derived from specific instances" and it gives as an alternative 'construct.'

I'm really trying to understand what 'concept' means to you, and I think you mean 'that to which the word points. ' Is that it? To me concept/word has about the same meaning as 'label.' And 'conceptualizing' means to me 'thinking about something...abstraction... putting something into thoughts/words.

And whether we use the label chien or dog 'the actuality' (which -if I understand you- you call 'concept') it points to remains the same.

This actuality * -where the word points to- is for me not a construct or a concept, but a mystery for which the words 'chien' and 'dog' are understood to be the 'conceptualizing/abstraction' of This Presence 'dogging' around.

Perhaps a language expert reads this and will settle it for us Very Happy

* With 'actuality' I mean "What it really, really actually IS independent of any idea.

.
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McB



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awakening wrote:
We can use the term instinct for the pigeon and the salmon, or call them 'merely beautifully designed reactive-survival machines' but all I see is One intelligence, One Knowing, expressing as such salmons, pigeons, street crossings, as well as linear thought processing in human mammals.

I agree with all of you!! I would just say, as others have here too, that there are no separate "survival machines" as such. The salmon and the pigeon are not separate things, but just appearances in Being, and the observed "behaviours" nothing more than changes in that appearance for which all sorts of laws of physics and nature are created in an attempt to explain such changes. "Instinct" is just such a concept and it is then said that the salmon and the pigeon have instinct, which is of course false. "Understanding" such behaviours by simply creating a law (a concept) that appears to explain them achieves very little and does not change what IS and what appears, nor that it is simply Known by One Knowing, which is what "we" are and Michael's Power is the the natural force of that Being in action.

Love
McB
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oneness



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ego, and the physical body is being "lived". And awareness is One.

In the now, simultanously playing hide-and-seek with Itself, experiencing thus "separation", an individual identity.

Does that implies that the intelligent-energy, awareness, being no-thing is unaware? As in deep sleep, it is still there but in an "unconscious" awareness (if I can put it thusly). In other "word" it is aware of Itself "when" It has a body, an ego?
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awakening
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oneness wrote:
The ego, and the physical body is being "lived". And awareness is One.

In the now, simultanously playing hide-and-seek with Itself, experiencing thus "separation", an individual identity.

Does that implies that the intelligent-energy, awareness, being no-thing is unaware? As in deep sleep, it is still there but in an "unconscious" awareness (if I can put it thusly). In other "word" it is aware of Itself "when" It has a body, an ego?


How about this:

Light cannot shine upon itself; it IS light.
Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

And like light may appear as light reflected from a mirror, a stone, a moon, so Awareness may appear as body/mind awareness.

IT knows, yet remains forever unknown.
Known, unknown
Both and neither...
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oneness



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
oneness wrote:
The ego, and the physical body is being "lived". And awareness is One.

In the now, simultanously playing hide-and-seek with Itself, experiencing thus "separation", an individual identity.

Does that implies that the intelligent-energy, awareness, being no-thing is unaware? As in deep sleep, it is still there but in an "unconscious" awareness (if I can put it thusly). In other "word" it is aware of Itself "when" It has a body, an ego?


How about this:

Light cannot shine upon itself; it IS light.
Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

And like light may appear as light reflected from a mirror, a stone, a moon, so Awareness may appear as body/mind awareness.

IT knows, yet remains forever unknown.
Known, unknown
Both and neither...



Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

I think I'm beginning to get an understanding...finaly Embarassed

Just clarify one thing more. "Oneness" Is aware of "Oneness". In the same token, can't awareness be aware of awareness, of Itself?

Be aware that it IS aware?

Many describe awareness as being "unaware" of Itself, a "void" except through a body. Or the same as deep, dreamless sleep...See?
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michael



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
michael wrote:

the only 'little thing' I might quibble about is the word 'word'...

for these marks that appear as 'words' are not actually 'concepts'...
they 'symbolise' or stand for 'concepts' which can never be seen (or sensed in any way)... they are only ever known...

it is why 'different marks' (eg 'dog' and 'le chien') can symbolise the 'same concept' (no concept of 'what' a 'concept' 'is'... except that it is 'known' (no concept of 'what' 'known' 'is'))...

if you get my Drift(er)... smile

but regardless...

definitely the same...

Love


Hi Michael

As so often it seems to be about semantics with us.
I looked up 'concept' in the dictionary. It says: "An abstract or general idea inferred or derived from specific instances" and it gives as an alternative 'construct.'

I'm really trying to understand what 'concept' means to you, and I think you mean 'that to which the word points. ' Is that it? To me concept/word has about the same meaning as 'label.' And 'conceptualizing' means to me 'thinking about something...abstraction... putting something into thoughts/words.

And whether we use the label chien or dog 'the actuality' (which -if I understand you- you call 'concept') it points to remains the same.

This actuality * -where the word points to- is for me not a construct or a concept, but a mystery for which the words 'chien' and 'dog' are understood to be the 'conceptualizing/abstraction' of This Presence 'dogging' around.

Perhaps a language expert reads this and will settle it for us Very Happy

* With 'actuality' I mean "What it really, really actually IS independent of any idea.

.


ahh leo...

the one 'intelligence/energy'... 'sensing/knowing/power'... 'consciousness' playing at being 'me' and 'you'...

'semantics' it is... smile

and yet 'what' a thing 'really really really is' (smile) is only 'known'... there is no 'thing' apart from this 'knowing of it'...

the word 'concept' is a mark... this mark may be 'understood', by looking up its meaning in the dictionary... this meaning is basis of 'thought' and appears to be different from the 'known actuality'… but it is not.

you are correct...

from the perspective of michael, the marks ‘concept’ are used to point to the ‘actuality that is known'...

'this that is known' (the 'actuality') cannot be 'looked up in a dictionary'... it can only be known.

'consciousness' 'knows' 'dog' (the animal) in every respect...

this 'dog that is known in consciousness' informs (gives meaning to) the image seen as a 'real' dog....

and…

the same 'known actuality' that informs the apparent object, also informs the word 'dog'...

if you go to a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word 'dog', you will see other 'marks'... these marks will include 'wolf' and 'mammal' and 'carnivorous' and so on...

each of these 'marks' are themselves 'informed' by the 'known actuality' that they 'symbolise'...

it seems that the coloured forms seen as ‘objects’ are ‘actual things’ while the coloured forms seen as ‘words’ are ‘concepts’… however both are merely ‘images in the seeing’

and the same ‘known actuality’ informs both…

just to keep the conversation going, have a look at the new thread on ‘concepts, things and belief’…

Love
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awakening
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:


each of these 'marks' are themselves 'informed' by the 'known actuality' that they 'symbolise'...

it seems that the coloured forms seen as ‘objects’ are ‘actual things’ while the coloured forms seen as ‘words’ are ‘concepts’… however both are merely ‘images in the seeing’


Sure Michael both are images, but why complicate this as I certainly would walk my dog, but never would try to walk the word. (Certain states of intoxication not taken into account here Very Happy )

Of course words are marks... and marks is another word and so on. If we all point to an object and agree to make a noise sounding like 'dog' we have established a way of communicating, not what it actually IS.

And yes the IS-ness of the dog is directly 'known' in Consciousness before the dog label/concept gets attached to it.

Now if one decides to call it 'cat' because 'cat' and 'dog' are both noises, the consensus falls apart and talking becomes so much harder. As our semantic adventures show: Isn't verbal/written communication hard enough already? Wink


.
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awakening
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oneness wrote:
awakening wrote:
oneness wrote:
The ego, and the physical body is being "lived". And awareness is One.

In the now, simultanously playing hide-and-seek with Itself, experiencing thus "separation", an individual identity.

Does that implies that the intelligent-energy, awareness, being no-thing is unaware? As in deep sleep, it is still there but in an "unconscious" awareness (if I can put it thusly). In other "word" it is aware of Itself "when" It has a body, an ego?


How about this:

Light cannot shine upon itself; it IS light.
Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

And like light may appear as light reflected from a mirror, a stone, a moon, so Awareness may appear as body/mind awareness.

IT knows, yet remains forever unknown.
Known, unknown
Both and neither...



Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

I think I'm beginning to get an understanding...finaly Embarassed

Just clarify one thing more. "Oneness" Is aware of "Oneness". In the same token, can't awareness be aware of awareness, of Itself?

Be aware that it IS aware?

Many describe awareness as being "unaware" of Itself, a "void" except through a body. Or the same as deep, dreamless sleep...See?


Perhaps the mind can only produce an ‘it is-or-it isn’t’ answer
And perhaps no answer is needed.
All that is seen establishes the presence of ‘invisible sight.’
All that is known establishes the presence of ‘unknowable knowing.’

Light is light.
Awareness is Awareness.
The Ultimate Subject (Consciousness)
cannot be made into an object of knowing.
The eye cannot see itself.

Yet, there is the appearance of
light,
seeing,
Consciousness
and there is no-thing but Consciousness
(or any other label we are comfortable with.)

It is the mind that thinks it should know or grasp this,
but why not relax, as it is clear that the mind is part of the known to.
It can never ‘grasp’ the light in which it appears.

This ‘Light/ Consciousness/Awareness/IT' is Uncaused, Unsupported, Self Shining, and has as much use for ‘grasping’ or 'knowing’ ItSelf as all-embracing space has the need to embrace itself.


.
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
oneness wrote:
awakening wrote:
oneness wrote:
The ego, and the physical body is being "lived". And awareness is One.

In the now, simultanously playing hide-and-seek with Itself, experiencing thus "separation", an individual identity.

Does that implies that the intelligent-energy, awareness, being no-thing is unaware? As in deep sleep, it is still there but in an "unconscious" awareness (if I can put it thusly). In other "word" it is aware of Itself "when" It has a body, an ego?


How about this:

Light cannot shine upon itself; it IS light.
Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

And like light may appear as light reflected from a mirror, a stone, a moon, so Awareness may appear as body/mind awareness.

IT knows, yet remains forever unknown.
Known, unknown
Both and neither...



Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

I think I'm beginning to get an understanding...finaly Embarassed

Just clarify one thing more. "Oneness" Is aware of "Oneness". In the same token, can't awareness be aware of awareness, of Itself?

Be aware that it IS aware?

Many describe awareness as being "unaware" of Itself, a "void" except through a body. Or the same as deep, dreamless sleep...See?


Perhaps the mind can only produce an ‘it is-or-it isn’t’ answer
And perhaps no answer is needed.
All that is seen establishes the presence of ‘invisible sight.’
All that is known establishes the presence of ‘unknowable knowing.’

Light is light.
Awareness is Awareness.
The Ultimate Subject (Consciousness)
cannot be made into an object of knowing.
The eye cannot see itself.

Yet, there is the appearance of
light,
seeing,
Consciousness
and there is no-thing but Consciousness
(or any other label we are comfortable with.)

It is the mind that thinks it should know or grasp this,
but why not relax, as it is clear that the mind is part of the known to.
It can never ‘grasp’ the light in which it appears.

This ‘Light/ Consciousness/Awareness/IT' is Uncaused, Unsupported, Self Shining, and has as much use for ‘grasping’ or 'knowing’ ItSelf as all-embracing space has the need to embrace itself.


.





Awakening wrote:


It is the mind that thinks it should know or grasp this,
but why not relax, as it is clear that the mind is part of the known to.
It can never ‘grasp’ the light in which it appears.




Toombaru wonders:

Perhaps the 'relaxing' and the 'understanding' arise concurrently....and one is not the cause of the other.
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awakening
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:

Toombaru wonders:

Perhaps the 'relaxing' and the 'understanding' arise concurrently....and one is not the cause of the other.


.....Uncaused, Unsupported, Self Shining.....
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epi



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you walk outside on a scorching day and see a wilted plant...

Water it...and watch it perk up within moments

This is awareness.

The water did not 'wick' up the plant like a dry paper towel.

The Universe works automatically.<

Water makes its way up a tall tree...

Gravity has NO effect on Awareness..

Awareness seems to not be subject to the Laws of Physics.

We exsist in the midst of miracles
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michael



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
Sure Michael both are images, but why complicate this as I certainly would walk my dog, but never would try to walk the word. (Certain states of intoxication not taken into account here Very Happy )


granted, but when it seems 'I am walking the dog', the apparent forms are different to those apparent when it seems 'I am reading the word dog'...

the forms differ - so it is impossible to 'walk the word'... (though some may say I should 'walk the talk' and just shut up and be... but then I wouldn't have a forum to play in... smile)...

yet in seeing (and hearing and feeling) the 'animal', it is the 'known actuality' that is 'dog' (which is itself ever unchanged) that gives meaning to the apparently changing form of the 'animal dog'...

in the absence of this 'meaning' the form is just the form...

this 'unchanging known actuality named 'dog' is the same that gives meaning to the apparently changing form of the 'word dog' (even the form of the word appears to change if it seems to be seen from 'upside down' for example)...

the forms in both cases appear to change - but the meaning does not.

even the known forms cannot actually change... it is only the image that appears to change - as it seems to be observed from 'different perspectives'... 'front on', or 'upside down', etc. ...

it seems as though the 'meaning' is different because the images of the known forms (animal and word) appear different... yet if the 'meaning' (as opposed to the forms) were different, the word could never point to the animal...

words... impossible to communicate with them unless the same meaning arises from both perspectives, or...

especially in the case of this forum...

they cannot indicate 'this' unless the attention is moved from the thoughts about this - to this itself... not as 'object' but as the ultimate subject...

Love
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Drifter



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
oneness wrote:
awakening wrote:
oneness wrote:
The ego, and the physical body is being "lived". And awareness is One.

In the now, simultanously playing hide-and-seek with Itself, experiencing thus "separation", an individual identity.

Does that implies that the intelligent-energy, awareness, being no-thing is unaware? As in deep sleep, it is still there but in an "unconscious" awareness (if I can put it thusly). In other "word" it is aware of Itself "when" It has a body, an ego?


How about this:

Light cannot shine upon itself; it IS light.
Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

And like light may appear as light reflected from a mirror, a stone, a moon, so Awareness may appear as body/mind awareness.

IT knows, yet remains forever unknown.
Known, unknown
Both and neither...



Awareness cannot 'aware' itself it IS Awareness.

I think I'm beginning to get an understanding...finaly Embarassed

Just clarify one thing more. "Oneness" Is aware of "Oneness". In the same token, can't awareness be aware of awareness, of Itself?

Be aware that it IS aware?

Many describe awareness as being "unaware" of Itself, a "void" except through a body. Or the same as deep, dreamless sleep...See?


Perhaps the mind can only produce an ‘it is-or-it isn’t’ answer
And perhaps no answer is needed.
All that is seen establishes the presence of ‘invisible sight.’
All that is known establishes the presence of ‘unknowable knowing.’

Light is light.
Awareness is Awareness.
The Ultimate Subject (Consciousness)
cannot be made into an object of knowing.
The eye cannot see itself.

Yet, there is the appearance of
light,
seeing,
Consciousness
and there is no-thing but Consciousness
(or any other label we are comfortable with.)

It is the mind that thinks it should know or grasp this,
but why not relax, as it is clear that the mind is part of the known to.
It can never ‘grasp’ the light in which it appears.

This ‘Light/ Consciousness/Awareness/IT' is Uncaused, Unsupported, Self Shining, and has as much use for ‘grasping’ or 'knowing’ ItSelf as all-embracing space has the need to embrace itself.


.




"With fixed and steady gaze, born of the unerring eye of God, scan for a while the horizon of divine knowledge, and contemplate those words of perfection which the Eternal hath revealed, that haply the mysteries of divine wisdom, hidden ere now beneath the veil of glory and treasured within the tabernacle of His grace, may be made manifest unto you. The denials and protestations of these leaders of religion have, in the main, been due to their lack of knowledge and understanding. Those words uttered by the Revealers of the beauty of the one true God, setting forth the signs that should herald the advent of the Manifestation to come, they never understood nor fathomed. Hence they raised the standard of revolt, and stirred up mischief and sedition. It is obvious and manifest that the true meaning of the utterances of the Birds of Eternity is revealed to none except those that manifest the Eternal Being, and the melodies of the Nightingale of Holiness can reach no ear save that of the denizens of the everlasting realm. The Copt of tyranny can never partake of the cup touched by the lips of the Sept of justice, and the Pharaoh of unbelief can never hope to recognize the hand of the Moses of truth. Even as He saith: "None knoweth the meaning thereof except God and them that are well-grounded in knowledge." And yet, they have sought the interpretation of the Book from those that are wrapt in veils, and have refused to seek enlightenment from the fountain-head of knowledge.
[1 Qur'án 3:7.]

Good work everybody.
Drifter
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[1 Qur'án 3:7.]

i cant resist Very Happy

137 is an old computer code that i remember.
It means jump to the address that follows.

i translate THAT to mean....go for it
Very Happy

i have a Koran in my hand NOW

i will read
Very Happy
i expect to be surprised Very Happy

i am from the west and only
know a few Jesus quotes from the major religions.
SORRY Shocked

i am not xtian or athiest !
.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible?
The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech."

[16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation,
save only Allah." [3:7].

Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]



no goanswering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Contra/qi023.html


i must read 20 times Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
The /Contra
section
maybe the most interesting SURPRISE
Very Happy
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