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What comes and goes?

 
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1065
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:55 pm    Post subject: What comes and goes? Reply with quote

ATTD Newsletter 68 wrote:
Presence cannot come or go as it is everywhere, every-when, and it is the knower of all comings and goings. The ‘me’ that seems to experience Presence is but an appearance in, to, and of this Presence; like a mirage, this 'me' appears but it has no independent or real existence.


Ah... maybe so many of us have it the wrong way 'round? While it seems that Presence comes and goes, maybe it's more accurate to say that it's the "me" that comes and goes? Presence is ever, and unchanging. And when IT seems to "come" it's actually an occasion when the "me" is seen to be "gone"... and un-real.

When we are "aware" of Presence... and then not... we think Presence is doing all the moving about.... coming and going. Then "we" want to know how to get IT back. And "we" want to chase IT so "we" can grab IT again. But Presence hasn't ever come or gone anywhere at all. And chasing IT, or longing for IT, is useless. It's just the silly old "me" that thinks it has found and lost something that can't possibly be lost or found. And all along, it's just a matter of seeing IT for what it really is.. the right way 'round. Very Happy


Love
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: What comes and goes? Reply with quote

maple3 wrote:
ATTD Newsletter 68 wrote:
Presence cannot come or go as it is everywhere, every-when, and it is the knower of all comings and goings. The ‘me’ that seems to experience Presence is but an appearance in, to, and of this Presence; like a mirage, this 'me' appears but it has no independent or real existence.


Ah... maybe so many of us have it the wrong way 'round? While it seems that Presence comes and goes, maybe it's more accurate to say that it's the "me" that comes and goes? Presence is ever, and unchanging. And when IT seems to "come" it's actually an occasion when the "me" is seen to be "gone"... and un-real.


This 'me' that comes & goes is only apparent to this 'me'! While presence is ever aware of this 'me' that thinks it is coming & going.

maple3 wrote:
When we are "aware" of Presence... and then not... we think Presence is doing all the moving about.... coming and going. Then "we" want to know how to get IT back. And "we" want to chase IT so "we" can grab IT again. But Presence hasn't ever come or gone anywhere at all. And chasing IT, or longing for IT, is useless. It's just the silly old "me" that thinks it has found and lost something that can't possibly be lost or found. And all along, it's just a matter of seeing IT for what it really is.. the right way 'round. Very Happy
Love


It is understood what is meant by "When we are "aware" of Presence".
However this can only be expressed as when Presence becomes aware of itself from the vantage point of this 'me'. Then it is seen as no vantage point 'me', only Presence!



Peace!
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi maple3 and cimages. Very Happy

It is not even 'me' that comes and goes... just the sensations that give 'me' apparent form. These sensations include the subtle sounds that give apparent form to 'my thoughts' and the 'colours' and 'feelings' that create the sense of 'my body' and the other sensations that create the sense of place in which 'I' seem to exist.

'Place' is as much about 'who I seem to be' as any apparent body or thoughts.

If I seem to be a fireman, I am in the midst of fires. If a businessman, it is offices that seem to surround me. As a prisoner, it is the gaol...

Indeed, the whole experience is 'me'. (Though from most perspectives 'me' is seen to be only 'the body and mind associated with the body').

Who 'me' is (the meaning of 'me', including the relationships of 'me' with apparent 'others' and the apparent world in general) cannot change any more than the meaning of 'elephant' can ever change (both the 'word' and the 'thing').

What is known is ever known. Where could it go to be forgotten? Into the past? From where could new meaning come? From 'new circumstances in the future'?

Neither past, nor future... only here and now.

Meaning/Knowing (which is one with Presence) seems to come and go, just as Presence itself seems to come and go, with the rise and fall of sensations… as in a dream…

No thing really changes...

Love
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awakening
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:

It is not even 'me' that comes and goes...


The nature of phenomena is nondual,
but each one, in its own state,
is beyond the limits of the mind.
There is no concept that can define
the condition of "what is"
but vision nevertheless manifests:
all is good.


From; "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

***********************************
michael wrote:

No thing really changes...


That IT is either this way or that
is IT appearing as such an illusion.
That IT could be captured in words
is IT appearing as such an illusion.

Whatever we say about it, is IT saying it as us.

We can say nothing changes, or the only thing that’s permanent is change.
We can say nothing exists, or we can say all there is is this.
We can say there is only here and now, or there is no here and no now.
We can even say, hip, hip hurray ( or KYE HO!)

Whether calling it IT,
or this, or that,
whether denied or affirmed,
fire burns, and water is wet.

What does it matter? It is all fine (or not of course Very Happy )
when the illusion of pinning our words to the sky
is recognized for the play it is.

************************************

KYE HO! Wonderful!
You may say "existence," but you can't grasp it!
You may say "non-existence" but many things appear!
It is beyond the sky of "existence" and "non-existence" --
I know it but cannot point to it!


Tantric Buddhist Women's Song (8th - 11th c.)

************************************
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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

or, to paraphrase one US Supreme Court justice:
"I can't define it, but I know it when I see it"
Razz
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
michael wrote:

It is not even 'me' that comes and goes...


The nature of phenomena is nondual,
but each one, in its own state,
is beyond the limits of the mind.
There is no concept that can define
the condition of "what is"
but vision nevertheless manifests:
all is good.


From; "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

***********************************
michael wrote:

No thing really changes...


That IT is either this way or that
is IT appearing as such an illusion.
That IT could be captured in words
is IT appearing as such an illusion.

Whatever we say about it, is IT saying it as us.

We can say nothing changes, or the only thing that’s permanent is change.
We can say nothing exists, or we can say all there is is this.
We can say there is only here and now, or there is no here and no now.
We can even say, hip, hip hurray ( or KYE HO!)

Whether calling it IT,
or this, or that,
whether denied or affirmed,
fire burns, and water is wet.

What does it matter? It is all fine (or not of course Very Happy )
when the illusion of pinning our words to the sky
is recognized for the play it is.

************************************

KYE HO! Wonderful!
You may say "existence," but you can't grasp it!
You may say "non-existence" but many things appear!
It is beyond the sky of "existence" and "non-existence" --
I know it but cannot point to it!


Tantric Buddhist Women's Song (8th - 11th c.)

************************************


'THIS'....says it all....nothing else need be expressed!

But yet it is....Such is the dance of life....there is only...the dance.

Peace!
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1065
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All righty guys... Smile

Yeah, you're right, Leo... I was really just "pointing" in one particular way at one particular thing. ...

Something about what you wrote in that passage in the newsletter just really struck home in a certain way....
ATTD Newsletter 68 wrote:
Presence cannot come or go as it is everywhere, every-when, and it is the knower of all comings and goings. The ‘me’ that seems to experience Presence is but an appearance in, to, and of this Presence; like a mirage, this 'me' appears but it has no independent or real existence.

Yes, that's very clear. (And it's likely you've written this same thing before, but this time the Nakedness was just there.) And then I had an image of this "me" thinking it is the center of the universe... this "me" watching Presence come and go, wanting to grab hold of IT. But if Presence can be seen as the CONSTANT, and if the little "me" can be seen as the wispy and fluctuating thing that appears hit or miss in/as Presence, then it's all very clear. How can the "me" lay a claim to Presence? How can the "me" plant its flag and claim ownership and territory? How can the "me" frantically chase after Presence, thinking it's missing out on something if it can't catch IT? The "me" is indeed the thirsty fish swimming in the Ocean.

And when the "me" glimpses the reality of its non-existence, it thinks it has had an "experience." Surprised Laughing

What is it that comes and goes? Confused


~~~ ~~~ ~~~

Okay, here's another story. As a young girl watching old movies, I used to idealize and romanticize the scenes in the movie. When a beautiful woman dramatically and elegantly fainted, and was caught by her handsome strong "prince" before she hit the ground, I used to think, wow, that would be such a wonderful and fun "experience" to faint and be gently caught by a strong and caring man. As an adolescent and teen I had that fantasy for years, thinking of how romantic and elegant and dramatic it would all be. Ahhh. Hmm. I even used to practice just how I would faint very gracefully... back of the hand sweeping up to the forehead... flutter the eyelids... find a soft place to land. Rolling Eyes (Yeah, I know, kinda dumb now, but I was very imaginative then. Confused )

And then one day I actually did faint. And finally it wasn't pretense. And my then-husband did just like the guys in the movies, he caught me before I hit the ground. And he swept me up in his strong arms and carried me to a chair, fussed over me and revived me. Well, it was a huge disappointement. It turned out that I had missed all the "fun" of that long-awaited drama of "fainting"... because ... well... I fainted! ... I wasn't there! ... out of this world! Confused... It's really very hilarious. Laughing


So... what is it that comes and goes? Surprised Wink Smile


Love
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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:23 pm    Post subject: Is there any movement at all? Reply with quote

I remember Ram Dass saying "Your coming and going is nowhere but where you are"
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cimages



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Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there any movement at all? Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
I remember Ram Dass saying "Your coming and going is nowhere but where you are"


And not even that.

Peace!
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
or, to paraphrase one US Supreme Court justice:
"I can't define it, but I know it when I see it"
Razz


Hi nemo. This is a good quote to illustrate how a set of words can point away from, as well as they can point to the reality.

"Seeing is believing" is another.

These quotes imply that "seeing sees 'objects' that are there to be seen".

Yet as leo has often quoted, the 'snake in the rope' illusion shows that this is not so. You may say that it is the 'rope' that is there to be seen, and the 'seeing of the snake is just a trick of the mind'.

Yet the seeing of the rope is no different to seeing the snake.

Perhaps you have seen a line drawing that appears to be a young girl. Which, looked at ‘another way’, also appears to be an old hag. There is no apparent 'choice' in this seeing. The way the image appears seems to switch 'spontaneously'. Now it seems it is the drawing of a ‘young girl’ and now an ‘old hag’.

Yet what has changed?

The lines are exactly the same, they have not changed. The 'meaning/idea/concept' that is 'young girl' has not changed. The 'meaning/idea/concept’ that is 'old hag' has not changed. Nothing has changed.

Depending upon the concept in awareness (as the lines are seen), what the lines 'mean' changes from instant to instant... so the lines are seen now ‘as’ a 'young girl’, and now ‘as’ an ‘old hag’.

There is no concept that can define
the condition of "what is"

But ‘Dzogchen’ could have gone on to say:

“Concepts alone define “what appears to be” (but is not)

Vision manifests only colour (and black and white)

“What is” ‘colour’, no concept can define, but I see it when I see. I see that the pattern of colours changes 'moment to moment'. How the colours manifest and change I know not. I see/know that 'in themselves', these ever changing patterns are meaningless. I cannot touch them, they have no 'substance'. They are the 'stuff' of dreams.

Similarly for 'smelling', 'tasting', 'feeling' and 'hearing'.

Knowing knows only 'concepts'.

“What is” ‘concepts’, no concept can define, but I know it when I know. I know that no concepts change and that all concepts are 'self referential', each defined by reference to all other concepts.

To what these words point, the Knowing knows... without doubt, without error.

'The use of the word 'concepts', is pointing to that which is known. It is not referring to the 'thought' that 'labels' a 'thing', but is the idea of the 'thing itself'. Perhaps 'archetype' is the best pointer.

Though seeing only sees and knowing only knows yet they (together with the other faculties of Consciousness), give rise to a single 'wholistic' experience that seems to change each moment... as the sensations and concepts in awareness change.

What this one is and how it comes to be or how these apparently separate faculties are give rise to a 'single' apparent experience is unknown.

Yet here it is.

All is good... Kye Ho!

Love
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cimages



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
or, to paraphrase one US Supreme “What is” ‘colour’, no concept can define, but I see it when I see. I see that the pattern of colours changes 'moment to moment'. How the colours manifest and change I know not. I see/know that 'in themselves', these ever changing patterns are meaningless. I cannot touch them, they have no 'substance'. They are the 'stuff' of dreams.


Thusly, color is as much an illusion as the illusion of the 'I' that think 'I' see it.

What is defining the who, that knows the thing when it is seen.

When seen by another the thing that is seen is entirely different.

Ultimately no sight to see, no-thing to be seen.

This is probably what the no thingness of "Michael" said but the same no-thing as perceived by the no thingness of cimages.

What does it mean?...Nothing....such is the game of illusion!

When looked at in this way at times it can be quite fun in playing!

And still at times........not.

Peace!
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michael



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
When seen by another the thing that is seen is entirely different.


Again, these words seem to imply that there is a 'thing' which in itself is 'something', which when seen by one observer (separate from 'the thing') is seen to be 'one thing', and by another observer, 'something else'.

No 'thing', separate from the observer is here observed. No observer is observed here... only observing.

Yes: "Ultimately no sight to see" (Seeing cannot see itself) and "no-thing to be seen"... yet here is seeing: 'seen to be' through the 'colours seen'. Confused

This is probably what the no thingness of "Michael" said Very Happy

What does it mean?...Nothing....such is the game of illusion!

Love
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maple3 wrote:
All righty guys... Smile

Yeah, you're right, Leo... I was really just "pointing" in one particular way at one particular thing. ...


Yes Maple.
That's how I took it; as pointing. No dis agreement. It resonated as clear pointing here, just like the fainting story, which is a great metaphor.

No real 'me' to come or go....and yet...what is it?
I think that judge was pretty clear.... Very Happy
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michael



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi maple3, for what its worth, I thought the 'pointing' was very clear too.

It is as it appears here (and for the record: no idea of where 'here' is... Very Happy )

Love
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