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This can be pretty scary
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makara



Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 1341
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

double entry ... not sure how that happened.

Last edited by makara on Sun May 16, 2010 9:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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makara



Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 1341
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
for what?.

Probably for what the prodigal son recieved Homer.
As yr signature says "home".

Quote:
Nothing is required. You already ARE. BEING is happening.
This wk the response demands will happen ... intend to return to this thread and relate outcome. Is there an 'energy' which will take care of 'itself'? I believe so, just don't know so.

Just now - must go till tomorrow - leaving in gratitude for the clarity and simplicity of what is offered to 'me' in this thread.

Quote:
Will what you ARE still BE if that story is no longer believed in?
Hitting the nail on the head brianpeter

no emoticon for muchas gracias.
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
does 'makara' know that 'ego/persona' is a mental construct... and not who 'makara' really is.


makara wrote:
Yes, as this can be deduced rationally.


'makara' is claiming... that 'makara' is not 'ego/persona'... that 'makara' is not a 'mental construct'... that 'makara' is 'real'

how can this be deduced?

what is a 'mental construct'?

makara wrote:
Also this (ego/persona) can, with effort, be changed thus it is not unchanging.


'thoughts' appear...

until they appear.. is there any awareness of the thought? if not... how can it be changed before it arises... and can any thought be changed after it has arisen? if not... how can any mental construct be changed... and by whom?

each thought is as it is... as it arises...

in apparently looking back... it may appear that the patterns of thought have changed 'over time'... but this cannot be due to any control by 'thought'...

apart from thoughts and feelings and 'experiences'... what is 'makara'?

Quote:
indeed, the whole universe... is a matter of 'belief'...

makara wrote:
Then right now makara is done for!


indeed... smile

makara wrote:
If the ALL expresses as each entity then at some stage IT being intelligence itself, must desire to communicate as IT will be aware of the fragility of belief.


why must this desire arise... and to whom shall it be communicated?

Quote:
seeing colour plainly 'is'... now


makara wrote:
Seeing colour is a complex phenomena. Why is an orange seen as the same colour outside in sunlight and inside under fluorescent light? (one long, one short wave length so the orange ought to be seen differently but isn't). (Come in Sara - Sarexplaining)


the words above are just talk...

while 'seeing' these words now... is nothing to do with talk... anything said 'about' seeing... is not 'seeing'...

Quote:
'number...

makara wrote:
Maths, like chess is a human invention/construction.


can you see 'number'? can you feel it? or hear or smell or taste it?

Quote:
'fraid... this is all there is.

makara wrote:
Shouldn't this read:
I believe this is all there is?


see if you can find the 'I' that claims to believe...

Quote:
there is no 'being' in the universe.

makara wrote:
This needs evidence - as makara sees it the evidence all points to there being an uncaused cause, a primal point, a source of all there is & since the elegance of the universe indicates ongoing intelligence there must, ipso facto, be a Being (herein this forum called the ONE)


without doubt... supreme intelligence 'is'... but this intelligence does not live in any 'universe'...

what do you know of the 'universe'... that is not an 'idea'?

Quote:
I am Life itself

makara wrote:
Is just another way of saying I am Being Itself.


I am non-being... seeming to be... smile

makara wrote:
Michael when you really explore is there really, trully nothing known?


only number form and meaning is known...

awareness is not known... it cannot be conceived of in terms of number form or meaning... I have no idea 'what' or 'how' 'awareness' 'is'... only 'that' it is...

that seeing/colour 'is'
that hearing/sound 'is'
that feeling/feelings 'is'
that tasting/flavours 'is'
that smelling/odours 'is'
that knowing/number/form/meaning 'is'
that power/controlling 'is'

but 'what these are... of this I have no idea...

Love
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
Dear everyone here, just now Homer.

What Homer says is true. Damn it! - all that is also know.
My world view is crumbling.
Circumstances are quite dire.
The apparent world is coming down on 'me' demanding response and were I to talk about Being/Oneness ... i'd be locked up.
So ... this game of trying ... asking ... has to be played out.
Yes
Quote:
It's total paradox and maddening!!

What else can I do?

Is it just my emotional hanging on which keeps reminding me of that great Christian promise "knock and it shall be opened, ask and you shall receive..." ?

__________

thanks Anna ... love the dog!






Since the day you started to construct your world......it has been crumbling.
Up until this point all of your efforts have been devoted to the construction and mending of your pseudo-reality.
Which, by the way, is your personal totality.
Somehow what-ever-you-are got a peek up your own skirt and glimpsed the machinery that keeps the sense of self grinding along.
No one knows how this happens.
When this happens.....nothing really changes....but man....it ain't the same.
It can be quite shocking and there is almost no one with whom you can share the experience.
Most of the people in your life will begin to seem like zombies.....moving along like machinery in their personal dream of separation.
Occasionally you may cross the path of another who has been exposed to the light of awareness....and your experiences may overlap in certain small areas..........but for the most part.....from here on in......you are on your own.
And like all new things.....that takes a little time to get used to.
Without the familiar handholds you will begin to feel like you are falling.
With time.....you will begin experience a strangely familiar feeling...the incredible lightness of being.
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brianpeter wrote:
how can I not know it? It certainly can't be denied.

"[i]What if I AM a figure in someone's (God's?) dream?[/i"

Well if you are, you are also the dreamer. There is no speculation here about what or why I AM - or what or why THIS IS if you like. All I know - more to the point, all I CAN know, is that I AM. The rest is mind wanting to feel in charge as usual.
That I AM is the end of it. It's all you me or anyone can absolutely and undeniably know.
All this mental activity is mesmeric and endless. Leave it alone - aren't you still here?



I Am is the door...and the window.
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
Here there tears ... an overwhelming sense of love ...
Quote:
found in the mind

Getting beyond this mind just cannot be ordered it seems.
It seems to require such silence then a wait for ...grace?




Love is the last handhold.
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makara



Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 1341
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today whatever this body/mind is - is wrung out, exhausted, defeated. It drags itself about for biological function.

M sometimes it seems a lemon is asked for and you deliver a lime.
Close but different.

If energy allowed there are things to question in yr post (it's not that there is total disagreement with you but somehow you have this way of reframing into your own words) An example...hmmm
Quote:
but this intelligence does not live in any 'universe'
well dear friend it wasn't said that it does. It was just said
Quote:
since the elegance of the universe indicates ongoing intelligence
or
Quote:
can you see 'number'?

how does that follow fro the observation that
Quote:
Maths, like chess is a human invention/construction.
?
As is the nature of litany the
Quote:
that seeing/colour 'is'
that hearing/sound 'is'
that feeling/feelings 'is'
that tasting/flavours 'is'
that smelling/odours 'is'
that knowing/number/form/meaning 'is'
that power/controlling 'is'

is having an effect. It has been read/seen herein so oft now that it's got by rote.

__________

T yr post starting:
Quote:
Since the day you started
touches whtever is here.
It has a beauty in it and is not unkind. It is as if (as with one of Homer's posts) for a while I am not so alone (and here it is literal, physical aloneness) and that it so very welcome.

As far as
Quote:
Love is the last handhold

- it was probably more like strong emotion - whatever is here is hightly emotional & can be easily swept away - a matter which causes distress in itself as it also washes over any desire to just look or just listen as objectively as is possible.
If there was love then there would not be this self-loathing and wishing to just disappear here today.

Seems whateveer is here is becoming flotsam - to be directed according to current and pointed according to wind. Whatever is here ... this apparent focus of thinking/feeling will try to not resist.
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
M sometimes it seems a lemon is asked for and you deliver a lime.
Close but different.


yes... what is the point in answering makara's questions...

asking a question that requires an answer simply leads to more questions...

but how should one understand this understanding?

as for repeating 'litanies'... these too are not for the understanding...

quite without reason...

laughter will suddenly appear in response to these posts...

Quote:
can you see 'number'?

how does that follow fro the observation that
Quote:
Maths, like chess is a human invention/construction.
?

perhaps just consider the question...

Love
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makara



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Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
laughter will suddenly appear in response to these posts...

Hard to believe this minute ... but trusting in what you say ...

Questions don't always have to lead to more quesitons. It can be like any other imbalance - wherein an answer resolves the question so both disappear.
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Homer



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Makara

Speaking about strong emotions, the natural understandable thing is to resist them and escape from them. However, while this helps temporarily, it keeps the whole process going. Facing them is one way of processing them (maybe with some expert help). This can be very scary but usually isn't as scary as we might think.
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makara



Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Homer,
Yes, complete agreement here.
What is interesting is that despite allowing them and as you say processing them they remain as strong as ever!
What is noticed is the quality of emotion when high music is involved - it is quite different and generally deeply pleasurable.
The use of the term 'process' reminds me of Arnold Mindell (whose work I was very involved with for quite some time).
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
Hi Homer,
Yes, complete agreement here.
What is interesting is that despite allowing them and as you say processing them they remain as strong as ever!
What is noticed is the quality of emotion when high music is involved - it is quite different and generally deeply pleasurable.
The use of the term 'process' reminds me of Arnold Mindell (whose work I was very involved with for quite some time).




Pleasure is not the path to understanding.
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makara



Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 1341
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Pleasure is not the path to understanding.

Perhaps, however what was being commented on was the
difference between the emotion which arises from music
compared to that which arises from all else. It was not about understanding but distinction - which is not to say that understanding wasn't a part. Must admit the emotion is somewhat of a mystery in terms of meaning/understanding.
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
Today whatever this body/mind is - is wrung out, exhausted, defeated. It drags itself about for biological function.

M sometimes it seems a lemon is asked for and you deliver a lime.
Close but different.

If energy allowed there are things to question in yr post (it's not that there is total disagreement with you but somehow you have this way of reframing into your own words) An example...hmmm
Quote:
but this intelligence does not live in any 'universe'
well dear friend it wasn't said that it does. It was just said
Quote:
since the elegance of the universe indicates ongoing intelligence
or
Quote:
can you see 'number'?

how does that follow fro the observation that
Quote:
Maths, like chess is a human invention/construction.
?
As is the nature of litany the
Quote:
that seeing/colour 'is'
that hearing/sound 'is'
that feeling/feelings 'is'
that tasting/flavours 'is'
that smelling/odours 'is'
that knowing/number/form/meaning 'is'
that power/controlling 'is'

is having an effect. It has been read/seen herein so oft now that it's got by rote.

__________

T yr post starting:
Quote:
Since the day you started
touches whtever is here.
It has a beauty in it and is not unkind. It is as if (as with one of Homer's posts) for a while I am not so alone (and here it is literal, physical aloneness) and that it so very welcome.

As far as
Quote:
Love is the last handhold

- it was probably more like strong emotion - whatever is here is hightly emotional & can be easily swept away - a matter which causes distress in itself as it also washes over any desire to just look or just listen as objectively as is possible.
If there was love then there would not be this self-loathing and wishing to just disappear here today.

Seems whateveer is here is becoming flotsam - to be directed according to current and pointed according to wind. Whatever is here ... this apparent focus of thinking/feeling will try to not resist.






Trying not to resist.......is resisting.
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homer wrote:
Hi Makara

Speaking about strong emotions, the natural understandable thing is to resist them and escape from them. However, while this helps temporarily, it keeps the whole process going. Facing them is one way of processing them (maybe with some expert help). This can be very scary but usually isn't as scary as we might think.




If it helps............the option is scarier.



Shocked
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