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Fundamental Reality
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
Quote:
that version's been around for a while..

Then clearly it's not new!

M wrote:
Quote:
and 'I' am already using This... to This's advantage'...grin

And I wish he'd written instead:
Quote:
buggered if I know... grin...


there's nothing new... yet, every moment... a new appearance... smile

the 'I' that wishes... does not exist... except as an idea... combined with some momentary sensations...

but don't take 'my' word for it...

look for (your)Self... smile

Love
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makara



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

e-&-f wrote:
Quote:
that separate sense of self
which is curious really, because even though it's seen through it has no problem popping up now and then


This is so like the O.P at:
no goawakeningtothedream.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=2935
where I'm told by T that
Quote:
That which has no existential reality cannot see through itself.

So I'm wondering how you can write: "it's seen through" ...
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Phoenix



Joined: 14 May 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

empty-and-full wrote:
Quote:
for I am Conscious

beyond this... I know nothing at all...


who is this "I" that is conscious? Rolling Eyes


That part of Consciousness that is the play of consciousness.

Who indeed. not a who, or a what, just Is-ness playing it Self.
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empty-and-full



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
e-&-f wrote:
Quote:
that separate sense of self
which is curious really, because even though it's seen through it has no problem popping up now and then


This is so like the O.P at:
no goawakeningtothedream.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=2935
where I'm told by T that
Quote:
That which has no existential reality cannot see through itself.

So I'm wondering how you can write: "it's seen through" ...


this reminds me of something Tony Parsons once said,

he said that it takes a thorn to remove a thorn

so an idea is used to remove an idea that is being identified with

the idea being used is "I see through this separate sense of self" and it's helping remove the identification with the idea "I am what I think I am" or "I am this thought"

but both are still only stories appearing in my true nature

which is awareness/consciousness itself

consciousness that is contracting around these two conflicting ideas that help to annihilate each other


Quote:
There is no me.
What was taken for 'me' was in fact an accumulation
of thoughts, experiences, influences etc.
This may be called egoic consciousness or persona.

ok so far.

Now the task is to see through this persona/ego.
Yes?





No.
That which has no existential reality cannot see through itself.
A shadow will not magically transform itself into the light.
It would be akin to one of the people in your dreams at night trying to get a glimpse of your face.

The separate sense of self can't really see through itself, because it has no life of it's own. It borrows life from consciousness itself. So it is not the separate self that sees through itself, it is consciousness that sees through the idea of the separate self and expresses it using another idea it creates. All of this happening in and as awareness/consciousness itself. Which is all there is really.







So the mind which created the ego/persona in the
first place is now to 'see through' itself.

The mind doesn't see through itself, it sees through the idea of the separate self, which is just an idea/experience. A very, very familiar one.

Something's wrong here ... and its bugging this awareness.

No, it's not bugging awareness, awareness is still and peaceful by it's very nature, it's the separate sense of self that needs to figure things out that is bugged.

It can't be THAT which is appearing as 'me' as THAT
already knows itself.

Apparently not. You see if the ideas are being identified with, then awareness is not seeing itself, it's too busy identifying with all these ideas and trying to work it's way through the maze that thinking has created.

I would advise you drop all thoughts and just be.

But then that's easier said than done, apparently.

Who or what is left to do the work of waking up?
Laughing

exactly! nothing and no one needs to wake up

waking up is just another story arising in awareness

there's this constant need for present moment awareness that is being pushed by many people

but that is just more story that is being identified with

once you know you're pure awareness, what is there left to do?

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empty-and-full



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix wrote:
empty-and-full wrote:
Quote:
for I am Conscious

beyond this... I know nothing at all...


who is this "I" that is conscious? Rolling Eyes


That part of Consciousness that is the play of consciousness.

It's amazing how language has duality built right into it's meaning!

Who indeed. not a who, or a what, just Is-ness playing it Self

Yes, yes, and yes !!! Well said!!! .

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toombaru



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="empty-and-full"]
makara wrote:
e-&-f wrote:
Quote:
that separate sense of self
which is curious really, because even though it's seen through it has no problem popping up now and then


This is so like the O.P at:
no goawakeningtothedream.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=2935
where I'm told by T that
Quote:
That which has no existential reality cannot see through itself.

So I'm wondering how you can write: "it's seen through" ...





It is the filter through which sentient-awareness experiences the world.
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empty-and-full



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="toombaru"]
empty-and-full wrote:
makara wrote:
e-&-f wrote:
Quote:
that separate sense of self
which is curious really, because even though it's seen through it has no problem popping up now and then


This is so like the O.P at:
no goawakeningtothedream.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=2935
where I'm told by T that
Quote:
That which has no existential reality cannot see through itself.

So I'm wondering how you can write: "it's seen through" ...





It is the filter through which sentient-awareness experiences the world.


heh,

you said in one sentence what I took a whole paragraph to say Very Happy

but of course your statement isn't really true Rolling Eyes

it's just more interpretation, more thought about how the world and we are

what would we be without all this?
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Phoenix



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no gosonic.net/~billkirn/POP_definitions.html

http://webspace.webring.com/people/ra/allmind/awr_01.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_spiritual_realms
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_spiritual_realms[/quote]


There are actually twelve spiritual realms.
The eleventh is called "Gullability"
The twelfth is "Wishful Thinking"
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empty-and-full



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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
toombaru wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_spiritual_realms



There are actually twelve spiritual realms.
The eleventh is called "Gullability"
The twelfth is "Wishful Thinking"
[/quote]

there's a thirteenth, "Fertile Imagination" Very Happy
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makara



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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is the filter through which sentient-awareness experiences the world.


"A rose by any other name .... "
So there's no self but there's a 'filter'.
(Not intending 'filter' in the psychological sense).
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Phoenix



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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_spiritual_realms



There are actually twelve spiritual realms.
The eleventh is called "Gullability"
The twelfth is "Wishful Thinking"[/quote]

the twelve different religious or spiritual temperaments:
1) The Compassionate Server, found in all religions, is concerned with action, specifically in the form of helping other beings. This person is usually not so interested in belief systems, rituals, etc., but rather seeks to be of assistance to the needy. This Server temperament can be rather simplistic or it can include the highest type of ego-free compassion. The chief variable here is whether the individual is free of the egocentric sense of being the “doer” and is “unattached to the fruit of the action,” as the Hindus say. So the downside here would be if such a person began to see himself as the “do-gooder,” the “rescuer” or “savior” of others, seeing and treating others merely as objects of his beneficence. The Server may also engage in a kind of inner action on behalf of others—for instance, through spiritual healing prayer or even redemptive suffering, inviting affliction so as to “take on the sins (or karma)” of sentient beings. The Server may overlap with other temperaments, such as that of the Devotee or the Mystic-Sage.

2) The Devotee is devoted to and loves the Divine Father or Mother, Adonai, Allah, Christ Jesus, Amitabha Buddha, Siva, Vishnu (as Rama, Krishna), Great Spirit, Beloved Guide or Guru. Classic, typical virtues which Devotees cultivate through self-effort or receive through grace are a) gratitude for God’s benevolence, b) shared joy and agape/love with the community of devotees, c) humility and simplicity (self-emptying), d) loyalty and obedience to the conscience (the voice within) and dedication to whatever this voice suggests, and e) awe-full wonder over the mystery of God’s transcendence and the power of God’s immanence in fellow sentient beings and as nature. The Devotee temperament is found in all major religions, including non-theistic Buddhism (for instance, in Pure Land and Tantric Buddhism).

In less mature form, the Devotee is prone to excessive emotionalism or obsession with “progress” in becoming closer to God. In the more mature form of devotion, these faults are corrected by sublimation of childish emotionalism and a nondual devotion wherein the deepest, essential Self of both God and Devotee are realized as the same. “God and I are one, and yet it feels natural and appropriate just to spontaneously worship the Beloved.” The nondually-oriented Devotee simply feels at Home, at one with Divine Being. A sublime nondual devotion is found among great adepts in Hindu Advaita Vedanta, Muslim Sufism, forms of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism in China, Korea, Japan and Tibet, and among some advanced Christian and Jewish mystics (e.g., Meister Eckhart, Catherine of Genoa, John of the Cross, Moshe Cordovero).

3) The Intuitive Mystic-Sage, also found within all sacred traditions, especially those in the East, aims to wake up to a realization of an Absolute, unconditioned Reality, the Divine Being that is always already the case, before/beyond personal and societal delusions and hallucinations. The Mystic Sage intuitively ponders the God-Self Source as the transcendent Pure Spirit, Absolute Being-Awareness-Bliss-Love fully immanent in/as all creation. Thee sage may utilize self-enquiry, deep relaxation, or opening up to the Grace of the inherent God-Self or Buddha-Nature. S/he acts out of an effortless effort. Downside: the would-be mystic-sage becomes lazy and content merely with an intellectual realization of certain timeless truths. At the highest level, the mystic sage employs an exquisitely refined, subtle intuition, a kind of “wise unknowing Understanding” which dissolves egocentrism and allows for a simple, unpretentious abiding as Pure Awareness or Pure Spirit. This liberating wisdom is variously called gnosis (in contemplative Christianity), jñâna/vidyâ (Hindu Vedanta), paññâ/prajñâ (Buddhism), ma'rifa (Sufism), ming/ta chueh (Taoism), and so forth. The Mystic Sage may formulate into words the awakening wisdom and the profound Realization it engenders, but s/he is not at all attached to such words, and may even use them playfully, poetically, and paradoxically to induce an identical “wise unknowing Understanding” in any listeners. The Mystic Sage feels no need to proselytize or impose doctrines.

Note that the realization of the Mystic-Sage may sometimes suffer from an overly pristine or dry quality if it does not include the Heart; thus most Sages spontaneously adopt the kind of motiveless, nondual devotion toward some aspect of the Beloved, or service to the needy, simply to “sweeten” experience, especially for the sake of inspiring those souls studying with the Mystic-Sage.

4) The Intellectual is concerned with understanding God, cosmos, human nature, spiritual truth and so on via abstract reasoning. The Intellectual spiritual temperament is concerned with theologizing and philosophizing. Classification, criticism, comparison and/or dialectical synthesis of ideas and propositions are the Intellectual’s forté. Most intellectuals feel constrained by a particular logic, whether the Aristotelian “either-or” logic of the excluded middle or else a more paradoxical logic such as Nagarjuna’s 4-fold Madhyamika Buddhist logic (“A,” “not-A,” “both A and not-A,” “neither A nor not-A”). One downside of the Intellectual is atrophy of the affective nature, the “heart,” in an obsession with mental processes. Likewise, the modes of rarified psychic sensitivity and spiritual intuition are often suppressed when intellect dominates. Whereas the mind is a powerful tool that should be honed, especially through studying sacred texts and wise discerning (Sanskrit: viveka) between the Real and passing phenomena, an exclusive fixation on discursive reasoning is viewed by spiritual masters as a pitfall.

5) The Dogmatic Believer feels the need to identify with a religious doctrine (ideas, creeds, myths) and benefits from this with great surety, confidence, security and emotional closure. However, the Believer is prone to being overly attached to a conceptual or mythic “story-line” mentality and can lose touch with authentic, direct, first-hand experiencing. Also prone to authoritarian narrow-mindedness (“I’m right, you’re wrong”), “us vs. them” thinking, rigidity, cognitive dissonance, and a need to proselytize. The Dogmatic Believer syndrome may be seen in especially great numbers and with different shades of strength among fundamentalist Christians, ultra-Orthodox Catholics, ultra-Orthodox Jews, fanatic Islamic groups, conservative Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Moonies,” the American branch of ISKCON (the “Hare Krishna” movement), Soka Gakkai (of the Nichiren brand of Buddhism), Aryan Supremist Christian groups, certain UFO “Space Brother” cults, etc. (Some members of these groups may occasionally display more mature types of spiritual temperament.)

6) The Monastic-Communalist values solidarity with a human community (brotherhood, sisterhood, spiritual family) and wants an ordered, regimented life away from a society or family systems perceived as meaningless, disordered, and/or needlessly complicated and stressful. Downside: possible unhealthy dependency on the group or overly naive childishness. On the positive side, the monastic-communalists may promote among themselves and visitors a tremendous agape love, emotional support, financial/economic security, shared humor and fun, and collective insight (“many minds are better than one”).

7) The Hermit wants considerable amounts of time in solitude to access profound spiritual depths. Some hermits will belong to a monastery or community and move back and forth between periods of isolation and companionship in a given day, week or month. Other hermits set up for themselves an almost completely eremitic lifestyle of solitude. Downside: the Hermit temperament may become so content in spiritual practice and certain rarified states of consciousness that s/he no longer needs or wants to interact with human beings. Also, if the original motive for retreat involved any form of sociopathic aversion to human company, a spiritually and psychologically unhealthy syndrome can develop. Ideally, the Hermit temperament involves a sense of solidarity with all sentient beings, and culminates in the person coming back to society to share the spiritual fruits of solitude (joy, tranquility, loving-kindness, and other gifts of the Spirit). In this case, the person with Hermit temperament may still continue to spend significant time as an anchorite, but this is combined with social interaction.

Cool The Cynic / Freedom-Seeker, for the sake of true freedom, detaches from what are perceived to be binding social conventions, family ties, material possessions, physical comforts, egoic ambitions and affectations. The authentic Cynic temperament values naturalness; self-effacement; austere simplicity; unfettered itinerancy or else residence at the marketplace or crossroads; unconditional contentment and happiness regardless of external circumstances; social reform to promote the welfare of all beings—especially victims of injustice (with whom the Cynic feels tremendous solidarity); humble attunement to that Higher Power which transcends human artifice and self-serving models of religion; and totally care-free reliance on this Higher Power. The outspoken Cynic does not mind “making a scene,” castigating mediocrity and corruption, wherever s/he sees them (especially in high stations of power and authority), even when this entails great personal risk. The Cynic subverts grand philosophical and political schemas, explodes dogmas, and promotes a Zen-like “non-dwelling” attention, freed from rigid positionality. Downside: the immature person with Cynic temperament is filled with “mere cynicism,” pessimism, a contrarian personality (always needing to mis-match others), sneering antipathy toward those perceived as bound, stubborn individualism, and an egoically-driven pseudo-shamelessness and impudence. The Cynic / Freedom Seeker temperament is found, of course, among those Cynics of the Hellenistic world, from Diogenes to Epictetus and Peregrinus; Socrates would also be honored as a member of this camp; some scholars suggest that Jesus’ persona was, at least in part, a Jewish version of the Cynic temperament. The Christian liberation theologians, in their solidarity with the poor and strong critique of injustice, express the Cynic temperament. Nagarjuna and the Madhyamika Buddhists and some of the Ch’an, Zen and Vajrayana masters could be seen as Cynics in the better sense of the word (they can also be categorized as “Intuitive Mystic Sages”). Kabir and many of the Sants of India clearly were cynics castigating and challenging the caste system and religious power structure. Many wandering renunciates within several of the major traditions, as well as the more “sober” among the “holy fools” of India (e.g., avadhutas), China (yü-jen), Europe (saloi and yurodivye), and Muslim lands (majdhubs) manifest the Cynic temperament.

9) The Ritualist-Ceremonialist uses and manipulates outer elements and sometimes certain inner thoughts, images and feelings in order to experience atonement with and empowerment from the Divine Source of the universe. These rituals may be exquisitely refined, benevolently invoking maximum blessings for all beings, or crude and selfishly motivated forms of "gray (or black) magic." They may be performed in a flowing, spontaneous manner, with innovations, or rigidly repeated, with no tolerance for innovations. Ritualists’ ceremonies may be short or lengthy in performance, simple or complicated, plain or aesthetically rich, and utilizing natural or artificial (manmade) objects.

Rituals and holy or unholy magic are found in every religious tradition, but the Ritualist is especially drawn to become a practitioner or participant in such especially liturgical, ritual- and ceremony-oriented religions as Roman Catholicism, High Anglicanism, and Eastern Orthodox Christianity; Tantric Buddhism (Vajrayana, Shingon, Tendai) and Nichiren Buddhism; Brahmanical Hinduism; Tantric Hinduism; Judaism; Magic or Wicca/Neo-Paganism; Voudou; and, in the least mature and most selfish and aberrant form, Satanism.

10) The Yogi / Psychic-Experimenter, found in almost all sacred traditions, manipulates the body and inner experience (attention, thoughts, images, emotions) to access Alternate States of Consciousness (ASCs), ever seeking to permanently realize a Highest State of Consciousness (HSC) with Altered Traits of Consciousness (ATCs). The Yogi achieves such different states of consciousness via experimentation with bodily postures and movements, controlled breathing, and special forms of nutrition (frequent fasting, vegetarian diets, lacto-fruitarian diets, etc.). Special emphasis is placed upon experimenting with processes of attention through entrainment; one-pointed concentration on mantras, images, sounds or body sensations; hyper-vigilance and attention to the transition states between waking, sleep, and dreams; and rhythmic patterns. The Yogi tends to be introverted, seeking a purer state of knowing and feeling. Downside: prone to obsession-compulsion, excessive aversion to perceived “distractions,” and tabus concerning impurity. Someone aiming for greater power/energy through Yogic means is the siddha of India and Tibet, or the shaman, whose downside is the sorcerer. A person aiming for more peace through Yogic means is the contemplative, whose downside is the much-maligned “quietist.”

11) The Prophet / Trance-Channel gains inspiration and special knowledge (religious, artistic, medicinal) for self and others via psychic locutions and visions gained in a mediumistic or alter-persona trance state. While attuning to the “subtle realms of light,” such a person may encounter the Divine Father, Mother, gods, goddesses, spirit guides, angels, ancestral souls, nature spirits, et al. Sometimes s/he may have encounters with more demonic or mischievous figures from these subtle realms (e.g., the troubled souls of ancestors) and the successful Prophet/Trance-Channel learns to ward them off or bypass and transcend them. The state of trance may be induced via yogic experimentation or self-hypnosis, or arise spontaneously after emotional or physical health crisis, especially in persons who tend toward dissociative, alter-persona states. The degree of the trance may also vary from a light trance-state to a “full-body” trance-state, the latter often involving a complete suspending of the normal sense of identity, replaced by the completely “other” alter persona identity of the channeled persona/entity/archetype. The latter situation would qualify as a case of spirit-possession. Downside: the person becomes psychologically dependent on the channeled presence of the other personality and perhaps narcissistically self-inflated in identifying with this “other being” who is felt as more powerful, authoritative, and dominant over the rest of one's human community or society. Mediumistic trance-channeling and/or spirit possession is found worldwide, from indigenous peoples of pre-industrial societies to Jewish, Christian, and Muslim prophets and saints, Hindu and Taoist folk religionists, the Tibetan state oracle, Spiritualists, New Agers, and Japanese new religions (shinko shukyo). For example, all three Western monotheist religions appear to have been founded by men who had the Prophet/Trance-Channel temperament as a strong aspect of their overall personality—the Jewish Prophets Isaiah et al., Jesus (this is most apparent in the early Mark Gospel and the John Gospel's "I Am" sayings communicated from the Logos/Divine Word or Wisdom principle through Jesus), and Muhammad (through whom was communicated by angel Gabriel/Jibrail the Qur'an).

12) The Sensual Ecstatic is akin to the ritualist and the yogi in being fascinated with manipulating outer and inner elements of experience to lose the normal ego-sense and attain a different state of consciousness. However, whereas the ritualist and yogi are rather more serious or sublime, i.e., Apollian or Orphic in temperament, the Sensual Ecstatic represents a kind of wilder Dionysian personality. Moreover, the sensual ecstatic is usually more extroverted. There is much more concern to allow a spontaneous movement of vital energy to express. The Ecstatic seems especially interested in losing the ego-sense through chaotification of personality-structures via intense stimulation, wild dancing, rousing chanting, feasting, even drugs and sexuality. Downside: an immoral and antinomian approach may characterize some among the sensual ecstatics. This temperament can be found among hyper-expressive “holy roller” Pentecostalists and other Christian “enthusiasts,” the Bengali Bauls, the more “intoxicated” Muslim Sufis and Jewish Hasidim, Osho/Rajneesh’s “neo-sannyasins,” those Christians attending “Rave Masses” led by Matthew Fox (et al.), Voudou practitioners, the “flower child” Rainbow People of North America, and the more Dionysian among the indigenous shamanic societies.

no goenlightened-spirituality.org/12_Spiritual_Temperaments.html
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Phoenix



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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

empty-and-full wrote:
Quote:
toombaru wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_spiritual_realms



There are actually twelve spiritual realms.
The eleventh is called "Gullability"
The twelfth is "Wishful Thinking"


there's a thirteenth, "Fertile Imagination" Very Happy[/quote]

The mind of the autistic.
no gosearchwithin.org/journal/tat_journal-02.html#1
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makara



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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there's a thirteenth,


There's a fourteenth .... wanking!
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
Quote:
there's a thirteenth,


There's a fourteenth .... wanking!


that was a thread killer! Laughing
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