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Oh toombaru..........let them have their beliefs.
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:11 pm    Post subject: Oh toombaru..........let them have their beliefs. Reply with quote

Is it healthy to encourage a child to believe that Santa is the bringer of gifts?
Does it help people to think that a loving God will alter the course of events and answer their prayers?
Is it kind to tell people that this life is less important than the one that will come after they die?
Is it a good thing to believe in a God that demands that we do and don't do certain things?
Should we continue to encourage those who persist in believing that there are special people who are privy to spiritual realities that are unavailable to the commoners?
Should we respect the spiritual beliefs of others.....no matter how delusional they are?
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Xmac



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Boston area, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: Oh toombaru..........let them have their beliefs. Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
Is it healthy to encourage a child to believe that Santa is the bringer of gifts?

It is if I believe in Santa.

Does it help people to think that a loving God will alter the course of events and answer their prayers?

Does it help you to think that other people are deluded to think that a loving God will alter the course of events and answer their prayers?

Is it kind to tell people that this life is less important than the one that will come after they die?

If they're dying it might.

Is it a good thing to believe in a God that demands that we do and don't do certain things?

Toombaru, they believe it, it doesn't matter if we see it as good. Belief comes from the Anglo Saxon, to wish. Their fervor and preaching is attempting to know a God that is a human projection. If they knew "God" they would need nothing from others. It's a painful and fearful place to be. It's also my experience that disbelief is just as painful.

I was brought up Roman Catholic, became agnostic, then atheist, then Buddhist and now...??? So I know the aversion to Godspeak well. One of the difficulties I had with Buddhism was that it had rituals that reminded me a lot of church. I remember hearing about how great A Course In Miracles was and couldn't get past all the words and phrases like, "Christ our Lord".

I've begun my road to recovery by finding the value that is there, like finding my own interpretations of the Bible, and by seeing that it is just another path that is equal to mine. If I can see through the manipulations and misunderstandings of the Bible, they could too someday. They're just not there yet and until they make it clear to me that they want something else, it's not my business.


Should we continue to encourage those who persist in believing that there are special people who are privy to spiritual realities that are unavailable to the commoners?

How much success would they have changing your beliefs or disbeliefs? How much success have you had changing theirs? Are you privy to spiritual realities that are unavailable to those commoners?

Should we respect the spiritual beliefs of others.....no matter how delusional they are?

No. Telling one to be respectful of others when they can't is disrespectful.


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Last edited by Xmac on Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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makara



Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 1341
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xmac, not only do I feel yr post resonates
I also notice we have much in common...
Quote:
I was brought up Roman Catholic .....


And yes, Buddhism came across like that to me as well.

Toombaru - I sympathise also with yr post. It reminds
me of s/thing my father used to say at such questions:

A man convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still.

Why would you even want to change others?
(unless they ask)
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
Xmac, not only do I feel yr post resonates
I also notice we have much in common...
Quote:
I was brought up Roman Catholic .....


And yes, Buddhism came across like that to me as well.

Toombaru - I sympathise also with yr post. It reminds
me of s/thing my father used to say at such questions:

A man convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still.

Why would you even want to change others?
(unless they ask)





Because their God wants me dead.


Shocked
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dilaram
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can a shadow die?
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh toombaru..........let them have their beliefs. Reply with quote

Xmac wrote:
toombaru wrote:
Is it healthy to encourage a child to believe that Santa is the bringer of gifts?

It is if I believe in Santa.





(t)
Delusional beliefs benefit no one.






Does it help people to think that a loving God will alter the course of events and answer their prayers?

Does it help you to think that other people are deluded to think that a loving God will alter the course of events and answer their prayers?





(t)
It makes life easier when one is not burdened with the superstitions of their ancestors.





Is it kind to tell people that this life is less important than the one that will come after they die?

If they're dying it might.



(t)
That makes the life of the one telling the story easier.








Is it a good thing to believe in a God that demands that we do and don't do certain things?

Toombaru, they believe it, it doesn't matter if we see it as good.







(t)
There are people that believe in slavery.
There are people who believe in the inferiority of other races.
There are people who believe that it is good to kill the Jews.








Belief comes from the Anglo Saxon, to wish. Their fervor and preaching is attempting to know a God that is a human projection. If they knew "God" they would need nothing from others. It's a painful and fearful place to be. It's also my experience that disbelief is just as painful.




(t)
Belief in imaginary gods removes the hope of living beyond delusion.
If one believes that they already know the answers to life.....the door to an open awareness is closed and locked.
One is bound tightly in the cocoon of a fairy tale.






I was brought up Roman Catholic, became agnostic, then atheist, then Buddhist and now...??? So I know the aversion to Godspeak well. One of the difficulties I had with Buddhism was that it had rituals that reminded me a lot of church. I remember hearing about how great A Course In Miracles was and couldn't get past all the words and phrases like, "Christ our Lord".

I've begun my road to recovery by finding the value that is there, like finding my own interpretations of the Bible, and by seeing that it is just another path that is equal to mine.







(t)
Any reinterpretation of the Bible or the Koran is merely a rehashing of ancient myths and fables.
Regarding the human condition, one can find as much truth in Grimms Fairytales of Mother Goose.











If I can see through the manipulations and misunderstandings of the Bible, they could too someday. They're just not there yet and until they make it clear to me that they want something else, it's not my business.




(t)
When their fanatical beliefs promote the killing of anyone who deviates from their delusion, it would be wise to intervene.






Should we continue to encourage those who persist in believing that there are special people who are privy to spiritual realities that are unavailable to the commoners?

How much success would they have changing your beliefs or disbeliefs?




(t)
Concerning all things spiritual......I have no beliefs too change.






How much success have you had changing theirs? Are you privy to spiritual realities that are unavailable to those commoners?





(t)
There is no such thing as "spiritual" and nothing to they could pertain.
There are delusional belief structures that endanger life on earth.







Should we respect the spiritual beliefs of others.....no matter how delusional they are?

No. Telling one to be respectful of others when they can't is disrespectful.








(t)
Smile
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Xmac



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Boston area, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(t)
Delusional beliefs benefit no one.


Is there a reality without delusion?
No delusion, no reality.




(t)
Is it kind to tell people that this life is less important than the one that will come after they die?

If they ask (they're open) and that is the truth as one sees it. Otherwise, I say no. Unkindness is a story I create when I'm delusional.

(t)
It makes life easier when one is not burdened with the superstitions of their ancestors.

Yes, then life is easy. One burdens oneself. There is no other.

(t)
There are people that believe in slavery.
There are people who believe in the inferiority of other races.
There are people who believe that it is good to kill the Jews.

It is you that is believing all of that.


(t)
Belief in imaginary gods removes the hope of living beyond delusion.
If one believes that they already know the answers to life.....the door to an open awareness is closed and locked.
One is bound tightly in the cocoon of a fairy tale.

Sounds nice and cozy. So really where's the problem then?
Are you captive to their comfortable captivity?


(t)
Any reinterpretation of the Bible or the Koran is merely a rehashing of ancient myths and fables.
Regarding the human condition, one can find as much truth in Grimms Fairytales of Mother Goose.

I agree, truth shows up in the most outrageous places especially from kids and in children's stories. The Wizard of Oz comes to mind.
Yup, it was a mere rehashing, it didn't take much to see that the Bible actually had hidden value for me. I had thrown out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.


(t)
When their fanatical beliefs promote the killing of anyone who deviates from their delusion, it would be wise to intervene.

Fanatical beliefs are the only reason anyone kills. Where has intervening given the world a lasting peace?

(t)
Concerning all things spiritual......I have no beliefs too change.

"There are delusional belief structures that endanger life on earth."
That sounds like a belief about beliefs

(t)
There is no such thing as "spiritual" and nothing to they could pertain.

"Spiritual" is a word you used twice.
I didn't use it at all except in quoting you.

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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xmac wrote:
(t)
Delusional beliefs benefit no one.


Is there a reality without delusion?
No delusion, no reality.



(T)
For the sense of self there is no reality beyond its delusional dream of separation.




(t)
Is it kind to tell people that this life is less important than the one that will come after they die?

If they ask (they're open) and that is the truth as one sees it. Otherwise, I say no. Unkindness is a story I create when I'm delusional.



(T)
I interface only with people who are open.




(t)
It makes life easier when one is not burdened with the superstitions of their ancestors.

Yes, then life is easy. One burdens oneself. There is no other.




(T)
Tell that to your mother-in-law.






(t)
There are people that believe in slavery.
There are people who believe in the inferiority of other races.
There are people who believe that it is good to kill the Jews.

It is you that is believing all of that.






(T)
Do you deny it?


(t)
Belief in imaginary gods removes the hope of living beyond delusion.
If one believes that they already know the answers to life.....the door to an open awareness is closed and locked.
One is bound tightly in the cocoon of a fairy tale.

Sounds nice and cozy. So really where's the problem then?
Are you captive to their comfortable captivity?





(T)
Nothing is wrong with it.
A few feel confined an yearn for the open spaces.





(t)
Any reinterpretation of the Bible or the Koran is merely a rehashing of ancient myths and fables.
Regarding the human condition, one can find as much truth in Grimms Fairytales of Mother Goose.

I agree, truth shows up in the most outrageous places especially from kids and in children's stories. The Wizard of Oz comes to mind.
Yup, it was a mere rehashing, it didn't take much to see that the Bible actually had hidden value for me. I had thrown out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.




(T)
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
Smile





(t)
When their fanatical beliefs promote the killing of anyone who deviates from their delusion, it would be wise to intervene.

Fanatical beliefs are the only reason anyone kills. Where has intervening given the world a lasting peace?




(T)
People kill for many reasons.
Self defense being one.

If is peace you seek.....you will not find it in either world.






(t)
Concerning all things spiritual......I have no beliefs too change.

"There are delusional belief structures that endanger life on earth."
That sounds like a belief about beliefs



(T)
I said that I have no spiritual beliefs.
I do have beliefs about the physical world.




(t)
There is no such thing as "spiritual" and nothing to they could pertain.

"Spiritual" is a word you used twice.
I didn't use it at all except in quoting you.






(T)
OK.

Know that in the truest sense....I am not responding to you at all.
I respond to the mind ripples that arise in our apparent interchange.
You are doing the same.
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Xmac



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Boston area, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me there is no "sense of self". That is a made up concept about separation.

People apparently believe all kinds of things that they deem good or bad and it has nothing to do with what is actually going on. But whether or not you believe that, it's all for and about you.

People kill because they believe their reasons, which are thoughts, are true and good. Everyone has to live their "religion"/beliefs/disbelief. And ultimately, that's not true either.

I have found peace in this world. It is always an option for me.

If one asserts that life on earth could be endangered, there is a belief that something bad can happen. Of course, even that assertion wouldn't hold up to inquiry.

Yes, I'm always responding (or not responding as the case may be) to "mind ripples" or thoughts. How I respond determines how much, or whether or not, I suffer. Sometimes I want some suffering. I know that because I do. Perfect.
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Libra



Joined: 12 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beliefs have a purpose
one we can't know the meaning or value of
how or why they happen
and unhappen

what really replaces a belief?
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dilaram
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libra wrote:


what really replaces a belief?



"That" what placed it there in the first place.
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="dilaram"]
Libra wrote:


what really replaces a belief?




A stroke?

Rolling Eyes
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Xmac



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
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Location: Boston area, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libra wrote:
beliefs have a purpose
one we can't know the meaning or value of
how or why they happen
and unhappen

what really replaces a belief?

The answer is in your question: stark naked reality. Shocked

They, beliefs, unhappen or fade when they are questioned.
Their purpose, as I see it, is to allow the drama of duality.

All subsequent comments will be entertained and conditionally accepted unless those comments are in direct contradiction to my experience or unless I think your full of Non-dualistic shit. weint_vor_lachen
Thanks for listening and have a pleasant tomorrow.
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Libra



Joined: 12 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xmac wrote:
Libra wrote:
beliefs have a purpose
one we can't know the meaning or value of
how or why they happen
and unhappen

what really replaces a belief?

The answer is in your question: stark naked reality. Shocked

They, beliefs, unhappen or fade when they are questioned.
Their purpose, as I see it, is to allow the drama of duality.

All subsequent comments will be entertained and conditionally accepted unless those comments are in direct contradiction to my experience or unless I think your full of Non-dualistic shit. weint_vor_lachen
Thanks for listening and have a pleasant tomorrow.


i believe in stark naked anything
Laughing
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Libra"]
Xmac wrote:
Libra wrote:
beliefs have a purpose
one we can't know the meaning or value of
how or why they happen
and unhappen

what really replaces a belief?









The answer is in your question: stark naked reality. Shocked




In order for the sense of self to experience "stark naked reality" it would have to by-pass the electo-chemical interface within the brain and the self-referential conceptual overlay through which all perceptual data must pass.
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