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The Gift

 
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:04 pm    Post subject: The Gift Reply with quote

Each psychological center contains.....and is composed solely of specific, limited and self referential knowledge.

Whenever this assumed psychological center inquires into its own nature.......with its extremely biased knowledge....nothing can be seen.

It in not the layering on of more 'knowledge; that is the gift.....but the emptiness itself.



toombaru
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sara



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:

"It is not the layering on of more 'knowledge' that is the gift.....but the emptiness itself."


Oh....great! Rolling Eyes

So NOW what is this 'psychological center' supposed to do with all of these lovely advaita books, CDs and DVDs that it apparently received as 'gifts' for 'christmas'?! Confused

The "pointings" Shocked postings of the toombaru psychological center are 'real' (LOL) gifts to this perspective!

Thanks for nothing.... and everything!!!

love,
sam"sara" Very Happy
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wizdumb



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: meta PHYSICAL Reply with quote

What about holons !
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sara



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: meta PHYSICAL Reply with quote

wizdumb wrote:
What about holons !


Hi wizdumb! Very Happy

Emptiness is the alpha and the omega of holons and everything in between and the antithesis and a story Wink

love,
sara
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sara wrote:
toombaru wrote:

"It is not the layering on of more 'knowledge' that is the gift.....but the emptiness itself."


Oh....great! Rolling Eyes

So NOW what is this 'psychological center' supposed to do with all of these lovely advaita books, CDs and DVDs that it apparently received as 'gifts' for 'christmas'?! Confused


You can pretend that you have no choice in the matter.







toombaru













The "pointings" Shocked postings of the toombaru psychological center are 'real' (LOL) gifts to this perspective!

Thanks for nothing.... and everything!!!

love,
sam"sara" Very Happy
Laughing Laughing Laughing
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sara



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:


You can pretend that you have no choice in the matter.



LOL! If I COULD do that, then maybe I can pretend I do! Wink

And good luck to 'me' in either attempt! Laughing

love,
sara
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choice is a very tricky idea.

And being an idea it cannot be 'like' reality.

sara, let's look at those books and CD's you got for Christmas (seems you have some like minded friends or at least some who are prepared to tolerate your weird views Very Happy )

From a human perspective you can choose to read/hear any of the books/CD's at any time, and start and finish at any point... but you cannot change the story.

Now imagine that all stories that could ever be, ever are... unchangeable.
(A story comprises only meaning and being 'self referential' all meaning that can ever be already is... it is One, the perfect reflection of Being... but that's another story Wink Shocked Very Happy )

Imagine too that each 'moment' is completely 'unconditioned'... that what appears this moment is not dependant on any past or future moment... that there are no separate powers or patterns 'forcing' awareness to perceive the next appearance - as though One is simply the powerless witness to an independently created play that One is forced to experience 'to the bitter end'.

Indeed, there are no such separate moments, nor any separation between consciousness and the play. It is only the changing sensations and ideas of time that create the impression of 'moments'.

What story is told this moment is free of any constraint. There is no karma. 'One' can 'choose' to experience any situation of any character at any point in any story now and now and now... or to not experience any story. And every moment of every story carries with it the apparent past memory that makes it appear as though there is 'continuity' of being the creature you seem to be.

Is makes no difference when you pick up the book, it is as though the story is unbroken.

And yet, having 'chosen' what story to experience this moment, it cannot be changed (for then it would be a different story)... so all characters in it are bound by the karma of the story.

It follows that as one experiences the story from the perspective of any and all characters, so one seems to be bound... but it is an illusion. Consciousness is free to make whatever it will of this moment.

The stories and the perspectives from which they are experienced are neverending.

Of course, this is just a story while it is thought about and analysed. The reality is in the creative act itself... this moment now and now and now.

Love
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michael



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The above post was changed after first posting.
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michael



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The story continues...

You know that as a 'person' moves further away from an 'object', the object appears to diminsh in size until it is a mere point, and then disappears altogether.

Yet you know that the object 'in itself' has not changed.

This 'known object' exists only as idea/meaning in consciousness.

It is impossible to see the known object 'as it is'.

The example given is a 'cube'. This object is known to have six sides of equal dimensions, but it is impossbile to see such an object.

The object seen has sides of differring size and shape and some sides always remain 'out of view'.

The colours seen to be a cube are perceived as such only as the idea of a cube is associated with them.

Now back to the disappearing object.

Lets look at the whole universe from a distance so far away that it is not visible at all. Now don't be deterred by the idea that "I can't get outside the universe"... just imagine it. Easy!

From this perspective, the universe does not exist.

Yet you do. And you know that the universe too still exists... even though you cannot see it.

But what is 'this universe that you know exists'?

Move closer and it appears as a point.

Closer and individual super-galaxies appear.

Ever 'closer' and galaxies and then individual stars and then planets and moons appear. And now you are approaching earth. As you fly in, the earth begins to fill the whole visual field. No more stars, or moons... just this blue planet.

Now zoom in closer and closer. (No more do you need to imagine what it looks like... just visit 'google earth' and you can see it Very Happy)

But still we are not done. Closer still you see a city and then streets and on the street a person... and closer and closer till you see their skin. And ever closer there you see cells and then molecules and then atoms and further down there are the sub-atomic particles and... at the limit, all that remains is void... no 'thing' more to observe.

In this little story we see that from both a great distance and from very close up the universe is void.

At what 'point' is the real universe seen?

Is the real universe the whole that is seen from a great distance, or is it the view that is seen close up? How close up?

In fact all 'views' or 'perspectives' are illusory.

The universe 'as it is in itself' is a whole that encompases all space and time on every scale.

This universe does not exist in space and time. Space and time are defined by it. It exists only as idea/meaning in consciousness (not separate from consciousness), given appearance through colours, sounds, feelings, odours and flavours... as in a dream.

What is seen are mere images having no absolute size or shape.

The 'Gift' is everything and Nothing... more prized than any thing.

Such is as it appears here now.

Love
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heron
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"But still we are not done. Closer still you see a city and then streets and on the street a person... and closer and closer till you see their skin. And ever closer there you see cells and then molecules and then atoms and further down there are the sub-atomic particles and... at the limit, all that remains is void... no 'thing' more to observe"

Soon we will be able to enter the holodeck AND forget that we and it are illusion...........again.
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sara



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
Choice is a very tricky idea.

And being an idea it cannot be 'like' reality.

sara, let's look at those books and CD's you got for Christmas (seems you have some like minded friends or at least some who are prepared to tolerate your weird views Very Happy )


In this story, it's bemused indulgence from the happy holodek! Rolling Eyes <G>

michael wrote:
From a human perspective you can choose to read/hear any of the books/CD's at any time, and start and finish at any point... but you cannot change the story.

Now imagine that all stories that could ever be, ever are... unchangeable.
(A story comprises only meaning and being 'self referential' all meaning that can ever be already is... it is One, the perfect reflection of Being... but that's another story Wink Shocked Very Happy )


I'd like to see it when you have a 'moment' Very Happy

michael wrote:
It is only the changing sensations and ideas of time that create the impression of 'moments'.


sweet!!! Shocked All of this emanates from source, so there are no moments or strings of moments, or, of course, stories of past and future or .... 'choice'. There is actually just a nebulous vibrational 'creative' energy.

michael wrote:
And every moment of every story carries with it the apparent past memory that makes it appear as though there is 'continuity' of being the creature you seem to be.

Of course, this is just a story while it is thought about and analysed. The reality is in the creative act itself... this moment now and now and now.

Love


Wow. That is amazing! Idea And when there is awareness from this perspective of the apparent past memory, then that is happening now!

(to be continued...)
grateful love,
sara
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michael



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sara wrote:
In this story, it's bemused indulgence from the happy holodek! Rolling Eyes <G>


Yes it is a holodek... with the one player constantly switching roles to experience the action from every perspective: now sooty and now captain kirk and now michael and now sara. Very Happy

As each role is experienced, only the thoughts and feelings and sights and sounds and odours and flavours unique to the specific character are experienced. The only memories are of that character's 'past'. On the holodek, it seems 'I am sooty'... or sara or whoever it is I now seem to be Very Happy

All that ever can be already is. The experience this moment is neither before, after or during any other experience, but is after all 'outside time'.

On the holodek (now experiencing life from the perspective of captain kirk pushing a klingon), 'I' push 'you' and both the person pushing and being pushed are just 'holograms'... neither feels the push... neither is conscious, any more than a character in a dream or on a movie is conscious. The feeling of pushing is in consciousness as it experiences 'life' from the perspective of the 'pusher'.

Again on the holodek (now experiencing life from the perspective of a klingon being pushed by captain kirk) , 'I' am pushed by 'you' and both the person being pushed and the person pushing are just 'holograms'... neither feels the push... neither is conscious, any more than a character in a dream or on a movie is conscious. The feeling of being pushed is in consciousness as it experiences 'life' from the perspective of the 'pushee'.

Though all characters are illusory, the experiences are 'real' - the push is felt from both perspectives... just not 'at the same time'.

(So michael and sara converse not across space and time, but through eternity... one to one Very Happy )

Both these experiences appear in consciousness now. They do not happen 'simultaneously'. Consciousness is one. It is not divided up into bits having different experiences 'at the same time'.

There is no time.

In timelessness, all possible events are now... ever unchanged. Which is to say, the software driving the holodek images/feelings/sounds/smells/tastes and story is already written. It contains the meaning of all possible stories. (What is this software?... no idea Cool )

The momentary experience appears when the machine is fired up, the story and character selected and the play button pushed... so to speak Very Happy

As any scene from any play can be experienced in any moment in any order it is not possible to say that one experience follows the other.

In timelessness, the words 'simultaneous' and 'consecutive' have no meaning.

Now is that a good story or what!

Does it have point?

sara wrote:
michael wrote:
From a human perspective you can choose to read/hear any of the books/CD's at any time, and start and finish at any point... but you cannot change the story.

Now imagine that all stories that could ever be, ever are... unchangeable.
(A story comprises only meaning and being 'self referential' all meaning that can ever be already is... it is One, the perfect reflection of Being... but that's another story Wink Shocked Very Happy )


I'd like to see it when you have a 'moment' Very Happy


See story above Very Happy

sara wrote:
sweet!!! Shocked All of this emanates from source, so there are no moments or strings of moments, or, of course, stories of past and future or .... 'choice'. There is actually just a nebulous vibrational 'creative' energy.


Even "nebulous vibrational 'creative' energy" is just a story... just like stories about holodeks and software.

But here on this forum that is all we can tell... stories from one holodekian to another Very Happy

Nothing lost Nothing gained.

sara wrote:
And when there is awareness from this perspective of the apparent past memory, then that is happening now!


sara wrote:
to be continued...


Without doubt... world without end.

See you on the holodek my love. Very Happy

Love
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sara



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
...the software driving the holodek images/feelings/sounds/smells/tastes and story is already written. It contains the meaning of all possible stories. (What is this software?... no idea Cool )

The momentary experience appears when the machine is fired up, the story and character selected and the play button pushed... so to speak Very Happy

As any scene from any play can be experienced in any moment in any order it is not possible to say that one experience follows the other.

In timelessness, the words 'simultaneous' and 'consecutive' have no meaning.

Now is that a good story or what!


Remember the story on Voyager where one of the actors created a holodek program where, when the characters left the holodek, they then found themselves in yet another holodek and when they 'thought' they had left that one.....etc., etc.! Like the Russian matryoshka nested dolls. Hey, wizdumb, 'holons'!!! Very Happy

And now this hologram seems to be in a 'real' house overlooking a 'real' sea entranced by a show on a 'real' tv! Rolling Eyes

michael wrote:
Even "nebulous vibrational 'creative' energy" is just a story... just like stories about holodeks and software.

But here on this forum that is all we can tell... stories from one holodekian to another Very Happy

Nothing lost Nothing gained.

See you on the holodek my love. Very Happy

Love


Laughing Laughing Laughing

As heron writes, brackets mine:

"Yet in the movie [holodek], the illusory we sometimes blame, or take pride, for what we say, even though there is nothing being said and no-one choosing to say it.

"Oneness dreamt the story [holodek], and the attempt to be clear about it, the questions, the questioner, the questioning, the answers, the answering, and the answerer, for no reason or purpose whatsoever." AND: "oneness does all by and to itself."

Heron is SO appreciated!!! Very Happy

Oneness just wants to have fun, no? Wink



love,
sarandipity
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sara



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

above story was edited slightly to include new 'heron' info

love, sara
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