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Tony Parsons' leg amputation
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DaveK



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:45 am    Post subject: Tony Parsons' leg amputation Reply with quote

Hi Gang,

This is my first post to your BB. And it's a bit of a flabbergasted and frustrated one

I'd love to get some feedback and perhaps an explanation that I seem to be missing.

So I'm listening to Tony Parsons', The Pefect Lover, on my ipod. Towards the end of the recording they get onto the subject of Tony's leg being cut off.

I believe the questioner was trying to nail down what the difference is between an awakened person's experience of a painful, traumatic event and a non-awakened person's experience.

They joked around a bit. Tony admitted that cutting would happen to no one. Pain would exist for no one, and screaming would happen. Tony never really answered the question as fully as I would have liked. So let me phrase this question in my own fashion.

Scenario:

From the unawakened person's perspective, we have a room full of people listening to Tony Parsons speak. Tony says things like, "There's no one speaking. There's no one sitting in a chair. Sitting is happening. Speaking is happening. etc.

Then two men come in with saws.
One man begins sawing off Tony Parson's leg whilst the other man begins sawing the leg off of a volunteer from the audience. Both individuals who are being cut are screaming and writhing in pain.

From the unawakened volunteer's perspective, she is in pain, she is bleeding, she is screaming, she is suffering. From the perspective of the unawakened folks in the audience. Tony Parsons is responding in exactly the same way as the woman, bleeding screaming, suffering. But what is Tony's experience of the event???

Cutting is happening to no one. Suffering is being experienced by no one. Screaming is spontaneously happening, but no one is doing the screaming. Awakened Oneness, as manifested in the apparent Tony, is aware of the pain and suffering being experienced. But Awakened Oneness in the apparent Tony is not suffering??? What does that mean??? From my perspective, there are two people suffering a horrible experience. Tony is bleeding. Tony is screaming. What sense does it make to say that no one is suffering???

It's walking like a duck. It's quacking like a duck. It is a duck, right?

When I Awaken and an apparent someone apparently starts cutting my apparent leg off, will the Awakened Oneness, which is all that's really left of me, just be mildly amused by the story of it all? Somewhere in some apparent reality, I am suffering for real, aren't I? What is the experience for the non-me that "I AM"? Shocked

Dave
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awakening
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dave, welcome to the forum.

What is written by you, all makes perfect sense within the context of mind and concepts. On the other hand, in non duality, the idea of an awakened person is seen as a fiction. If there is something like awakening, it is away from the person and not for the person.

Awareness is not lightly amused at the cutting off of Tony’s leg. In the unlikely case that amusement would arise there would be awareness of the amusement. Amusement and pain are experiences. Awareness is the experiencing.

The story of ‘no one there’ is just a pointer for the mind. Do not believe it, check it out and see if it is so. Is there really a thinker, thinking thoughts or are they self arising? Can this thinker be found apart from thought itself? Where is it in a moment of inner silence? And if there is a thinker in charge of thought, why would it ever choose to have an unhappy thought? Is the next thought known before hand or only when it arises?

Is there not something aware of the thought, something that is itself not a thought?

These are questions that need no conceptual answers, and they cannot be solved in a conventional, logical manner. If they could, a book with such answers would have been written thousands of years ago.

By the way, it is not only Tony who says that there is no one there. Modern scientific views exist that state the same, as well as old scriptures.

Buddha apparently said:

The deed there is, but no doer there of,
Suffering exists, but there is no one who suffers.

When we see the body mind as what we exclusively are, and when there is the belief in personal authorship over ‘my’ life, such a statement makes no sense and can be argued against with concepts such as in your amputee posting. The suggestion here is to go for the root of the tree; the sense of being an individual, a body/mind, a thinker of thoughts, and a doer of deeds.

The apparent gap between the views that ‘ I am this person’ and ‘there is no person’ cannot be bridged by thought. The insight that there is ‘no one there’ is prior to thought and thought, how ever eloquent, logic and refined’ can never reach ‘prior to thought.’

Looking with the mind within the mind will turn up more mind/thought. The mind is the ‘dual dividing knife’; clarity is the ‘non-dual glue.’.... much simpler then the mind can imagine. Not something known, but the unknowable knowing in which every some-thing arises and dissolves.
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nemo



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave

I understand the apparent confusion. Try this pointer/analogy/story:

Imagine a patch of very hot ground and heat is rising from that ground.
In the shimmering heat waves you see images appear (a "mirage") and those images look and feel very real to you. Now, one of those images apears to be a person and has its leg cut off. The image starts screaming.

Now, given that:

Was anyone's leg cut off?
Was the HEAT in the ground affected in any way by what transpired in the shimmeriing heat wave images?

Oh, and one last thing.
You, watching all this,

are just another image appearing in the shimmering heat waves...

This is the analogy that occured to me to "explain" the Source of all, undefined, unndifferentiated, unknkowable, no-thing and yet the surce of all-things.
So, the heat waves, as well as the images apperariing in them are projections, manifestations of the source, in the source.
but, there is "no one" - no separate individuals with choice and volition -that is being affected.
Yet, it appears as if there are separate beings moving about, having their legs cut off (sheesh, such violence. I prefer Tony'y bit about going to a shoe store and "no one buys shoes").

with love

joe
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DaveK



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning and thank you for your patient and thoughtful response.

awakening wrote:
If there is something like awakening, it is away from the person and not for the person.

Okay. I'm with you so far. The person does not have an awakening experience. Awakening is away from the person.

But the apparent person still exists in our respective dreams. Tony still exists in my dream. And this Tony came away from his awakening with something to talk about.

So from our side of the wall. Some thing happened. From the side of pure consciousness, no thing happened. But the Tony on our side of the wall remains apparent to us and apparently has memories of walking across a park and awakening.

awakening wrote:
Amusement and pain are experiences. Awareness is the experiencing.

Alright. So awareness is necessary for the experiencing to take place. I think I'm still with you.

awakening wrote:
The story of ‘no one there’ is just a pointer for the mind. Do not believe it, check it out and see if it is so.
Is there really a thinker, thinking thoughts or are they self arising? Can this thinker be found apart from thought itself? Where is it in a moment of inner silence? And if there is a thinker in charge of thought, why would it ever choose to have an unhappy thought? Is the next thought known before hand or only when it arises?

Is there not something aware of the thought, something that is itself not a thought?


My personal experience of what you describe has been developing over the last several months. And I'm at a place where I've been able to detach my sense of identity from my thoughts and feelings to some degree and observe their independent, unwilled arisings.

I try to stay in a a relaxed but alert state as much as possible so that I can "catch" these thoughts and feelings with my awareness before they result in behavior or verbal expression. This has been very helpful in a practical sense, allowing me to choose a response to events in my environment rather than to react.

There is a silent witness to the arisings of thoughts and feelings and this silent witness feels more like the real me than do the thoughts and feelings. But I usually find that I'm really just in a subtler level of ego because I find myself laughing at the sillyness of some of my thought patterns or emotional "buttons".

So I keep trying to look further upstream for the unconditioned awareness. Or tell myself that the seeker is really the sought. But so far there has not been a falling away of ego structures or an awakening.

I have been reading voraciously, Tolle, Ramana Maharshi, Gangaji, Nisargadatta, Tony Parsons, and just started reading Awakening to the Dream.

I've been alternating between pushing my mind hard in the hopes that it will crack under the pressure and I will awaken, and giving up the effort entirely (although admittedly not for very long periods of time).

I had two experiences worth mentioning. The first was about a month ago. I had the feeling of, "I get it." It was a peaceful space accompanied by the feeling that there is nothing to worry about ever. The following day I was pretty blissful and watching my ego from a comfortably detached place. It was like I was a relaxed mother and my ego was my child playing nearby in the yard.

The other experience came in bed before sleep one night last weeks. I was straining to look and look for the source of my awareness, deeper and deeper while simultaneously trying to make sense of all I had been reading. I reached that feeling of discomfort one gets when they cannot figure something out. Usually this discomfort makes me quit. But this time I pushed on through the deepening discomfort. My body began to feel a little bit strange, like energy was moving around. Then all of a sudden my thinking and striving came to a sudden halt and I felt a blissful peaceful feeling come over me. It wasn't that I had moved beyond my questions. But in that moment I didn't care. I fell asleep. The next day I was back to my normal everyday experience.

awakening wrote:
These are questions that need no conceptual answers, and they cannot be solved in a conventional, logical manner. If they could, a book with such answers would have been written thousands of years ago.


I can accept that. Nevertheless, a breakthrough or breakaway or whatever you want to call it has happened to individuals throughout history. So there would seem to be away to follow in their footsteps and get where they got.

awakening wrote:
By the way, it is not only Tony who says that there is no one there. Modern scientific views exist that state the same, as well as old scriptures.

Right. I have some familiarity with quantum theory and holographic theories of the universe. Also, I have some familiarity with statements of the Buddha that point to the "no one there" view.



awakening wrote:
When we see the body mind as what we exclusively are, and when there is the belief in personal authorship over ‘my’ life, such a statement makes no sense and can be argued against with concepts such as in your amputee posting. The suggestion here is to go for the root of the tree; the sense of being an individual, a body/mind, a thinker of thoughts, and a doer of deeds.


Right. So I try to do self-inquiry and get at the root experience(non-experience) which is said to put an end to all questions. But until awakening occurs, I also try to wrap my head around it all, in the hopes that I will reach a higher plateau of understanding, like what happened when I realized that I am not my thoughts.

awakening wrote:
The apparent gap between the views that ‘ I am this person’ and ‘there is no person’ cannot be bridged by thought. The insight that there is ‘no one there’ is prior to thought and thought, how ever eloquent, logic and refined’ can never reach ‘prior to thought.’

Looking with the mind within the mind will turn up more mind/thought. The mind is the ‘dual dividing knife’; clarity is the ‘non-dual glue.’.... much simpler then the mind can imagine. Not something known, but the unknowable knowing in which every some-thing arises and dissolves.

Yes. And I understand that the reality is incredibly simple, not incredibly complex, and that it is incredibly close and intimate, and that it is completely ordinary and nothing special. Intellectually I've accepted those parts. So I'm not looking for flash bang choruses of angels univeral omniscience or the ability to sunbathe naked in Antartica.

But if I walk out into the hall and hold up a certain number of fingers, Tony will not know how many fingers I'm holding up. So does he truly observe all as One or did he just have an interesting experience that made him think he does. (yeah yeah. I know. He doesn't think he exists, let alone has experiences. Walking out of the room happens. Finger raising happens. But seeing those fingers does not happen for Oneness in the form of Tony, so is it truly Oneness?

Thank you for your patience. If this post seems a bit long winded, it's not my fault because I don't exist and bulletin board posting happens. Wink

Dave
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Tony Parsons' leg amputation Reply with quote

DaveK wrote:
Hi Gang,

This is my first post to your BB. And it's a bit of a flabbergasted and frustrated one

I'd love to get some feedback and perhaps an explanation that I seem to be missing.

So I'm listening to Tony Parsons', The Pefect Lover, on my ipod. Towards the end of the recording they get onto the subject of Tony's leg being cut off.

I believe the questioner was trying to nail down what the difference is between an awakened person's experience of a painful, traumatic event and a non-awakened person's experience.

They joked around a bit. Tony admitted that cutting would happen to no one. Pain would exist for no one, and screaming would happen. Tony never really answered the question as fully as I would have liked. So let me phrase this question in my own fashion.

Scenario:

From the unawakened person's perspective, we have a room full of people listening to Tony Parsons speak. Tony says things like, "There's no one speaking. There's no one sitting in a chair. Sitting is happening. Speaking is happening. etc.

Then two men come in with saws.
One man begins sawing off Tony Parson's leg whilst the other man begins sawing the leg off of a volunteer from the audience. Both individuals who are being cut are screaming and writhing in pain.

From the unawakened volunteer's perspective, she is in pain, she is bleeding, she is screaming, she is suffering. From the perspective of the unawakened folks in the audience. Tony Parsons is responding in exactly the same way as the woman, bleeding screaming, suffering. But what is Tony's experience of the event???

Cutting is happening to no one. Suffering is being experienced by no one. Screaming is spontaneously happening, but no one is doing the screaming. Awakened Oneness, as manifested in the apparent Tony, is aware of the pain and suffering being experienced. But Awakened Oneness in the apparent Tony is not suffering??? What does that mean??? From my perspective, there are two people suffering a horrible experience. Tony is bleeding. Tony is screaming. What sense does it make to say that no one is suffering???

It's walking like a duck. It's quacking like a duck. It is a duck, right?

When I Awaken and an apparent someone apparently starts cutting my apparent leg off, will the Awakened Oneness, which is all that's really left of me, just be mildly amused by the story of it all? Somewhere in some apparent reality, I am suffering for real, aren't I? What is the experience for the non-me that "I AM"? Shocked

Dave





I have heard that in order to become enlightened.......first you have to lift yourself off the ground by pulling very hard on your bootstraps.


Rolling Eyes


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nemo



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

even tougher to do with only one leg, yes?

Razz
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DaveK



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your response, Joe. Any and all imput is greatly appreciated. I have this idea that if I talk to all of the blind men who are touching different parts of the elephant than I will gain a more accurate picture of the real elephant than if I only speak to a few of them. I also understand that the only way to get a complete picture is to become the elephant. Easier said than done. Very Happy
nemo wrote:

Imagine a patch of very hot ground and heat is rising from that ground.
In the shimmering heat waves you see images appear (a "mirage") and those images look and feel very real to you. Now, one of those images apears to be a person and has its leg cut off. The image starts screaming.

Now, given that:

Was anyone's leg cut off?
Was the HEAT in the ground affected in any way by what transpired in the shimmeriing heat wave images?

Oh, and one last thing.
You, watching all this,

are just another image appearing in the shimmering heat waves...

This is the analogy that occured to me to "explain" the Source of all, undefined, unndifferentiated, unknkowable, no-thing and yet the surce of all-things.
So, the heat waves, as well as the images apperariing in them are projections, manifestations of the source, in the source.
but, there is "no one" - no separate individuals with choice and volition -that is being affected.
Yet, it appears as if there are separate beings moving about, having their legs cut off (sheesh, such violence. I prefer Tony'y bit about going to a shoe store and "no one buys shoes").

LOL! Yes. Sorry about the gruesome example. I think the woman used it because it makes it all more real and in your face. That's why I latched onto it. Because if we are in a room having this discussion and then the cutting begins, it seems to me that we would all react as though this apparent reality is real, awakened or not.

So to use your heat mirage example. All we unawakened folks are really just images in the heat mirage. Tony is awake and aware that we are just images in the heat mirage and that there are no people cutting other people's legs off.

But if the image of Tony apparently has his leg cut off, this image will also apparently react as one who is suffering. And the mirage images of we in the apparent audience will appear to be shocked and appalled.

So for Tony, is it like he is pure awareness watching the mirage of Tony from a distance and knows it to be illusion, that "enlightened Tony" truly does not suffer? That's my main question. Does suffering truly come to an end.

Because if it is just that the awareness that used to be unawakened Tony has detached from the Tony heat mirage, what good does that do the heat mirage version of Tony and his heat mirage world which for all practical purposes is our shared reality?
Question Question Question
Dave
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaveK wrote:
Thank you for your response, Joe. Any and all imput is greatly appreciated. I have this idea that if I talk to all of the blind men who are touching different parts of the elephant than I will gain a more accurate picture of the real elephant than if I only speak to a few of them. I also understand that the only way to get a complete picture is to become the elephant. Easier said than done. Very Happy
nemo wrote:

Imagine a patch of very hot ground and heat is rising from that ground.
In the shimmering heat waves you see images appear (a "mirage") and those images look and feel very real to you. Now, one of those images apears to be a person and has its leg cut off. The image starts screaming.

Now, given that:

Was anyone's leg cut off?
Was the HEAT in the ground affected in any way by what transpired in the shimmeriing heat wave images?

Oh, and one last thing.
You, watching all this,

are just another image appearing in the shimmering heat waves...

This is the analogy that occured to me to "explain" the Source of all, undefined, unndifferentiated, unknkowable, no-thing and yet the surce of all-things.
So, the heat waves, as well as the images apperariing in them are projections, manifestations of the source, in the source.
but, there is "no one" - no separate individuals with choice and volition -that is being affected.
Yet, it appears as if there are separate beings moving about, having their legs cut off (sheesh, such violence. I prefer Tony'y bit about going to a shoe store and "no one buys shoes").

LOL! Yes. Sorry about the gruesome example. I think the woman used it because it makes it all more real and in your face. That's why I latched onto it. Because if we are in a room having this discussion and then the cutting begins, it seems to me that we would all react as though this apparent reality is real, awakened or not.

So to use your heat mirage example. All we unawakened folks are really just images in the heat mirage. Tony is awake and aware that we are just images in the heat mirage and that there are no people cutting other people's legs off.

But if the image of Tony apparently has his leg cut off, this image will also apparently react as one who is suffering. And the mirage images of we in the apparent audience will appear to be shocked and appalled.

So for Tony, is it like he is pure awareness watching the mirage of Tony from a distance and knows it to be illusion, that "enlightened Tony" truly does not suffer? That's my main question. Does suffering truly come to an end.

Because if it is just that the awareness that used to be unawakened Tony has detached from the Tony heat mirage, what good does that do the heat mirage version of Tony and his heat mirage world which for all practical purposes is our shared reality?
Question Question Question
Dave



There is no 'Tony' that 'sees'.

There is only consciousness that experiences its natural state through the machinery of Tony.

There is no enlightened meat.

You can pick up only zombie girls.....at the Zombie Jamboree.

Laughing


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toombaru



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
even tougher to do with only one leg, yes?

Razz




I have heard that some of Tony's more ardent followers want to make a religious artifact and build a shrine with the amputated leg.

.............something about: "One Leg Up on Enlightenment".






Rolling Eyes




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DaveK



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
nemo wrote:
even tougher to do with only one leg, yes?

Razz




I have heard that some of Tony's more ardent followers want to make a religious artifact and build a shrine with the amputated leg.

.............something about: "One Leg Up on Enlightenment".


Thank God for humor! I need to laugh when I find myself neck-deep in illogical, semantic, gobblygoop!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaveK wrote:
toombaru wrote:
nemo wrote:
even tougher to do with only one leg, yes?

:P




I have heard that some of Tony's more ardent followers want to make a religious artifact and build a shrine with the amputated leg.

.............something about: "One Leg Up on Enlightenment".


Thank God for humor! I need to laugh when I find myself neck-deep in illogical, semantic, gobblygoop!




The 'you' that is referred to.....is nothing other then illogical, semantic,gobblygoop.



LOL



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="toombaru"]
DaveK wrote:
toombaru wrote:
nemo wrote:
even tougher to do with only one leg, yes?

Razz




I have heard that some of Tony's more ardent followers want to make a religious artifact and build a shrine with the amputated leg.

.............something about: "One Leg Up on Enlightenment".


Thank God for humor! I need to laugh when I find myself neck-deep in illogical, semantic, gobblygoop!




The 'you' that is referred to.....is nothing other then illogical, semantic,gobblygoop.



LOL



toombaru[/quote



You think that there is a person in there.....a confused little person thing....living inside of that body that you call "Me"

When in fact this me thing is the confusion itself.


Ain't that a kick in the ass?


Razz


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The questions to ask Tony is: If I cut off your leg will blood (seem to) spurt and will there be an experience of bodily pain? I can't imagine him saying no. These same types of questions were asked of Nisargadatta and he said, of course! BUT “HE” is not troubled by it. As HE knows he is the pure awareness that is not disturbed by the content of the awareness (the heat in the ground is NOT affected by the mirages appearing in the shimmering heat waves it creates).

I think that it is our outward focus, doing, not doing, that creates distractions from realizing the truth, nonetheless we can't stop doing/not-doing. In other words, "we" - the source - apperars to distract itself from itself. sheesh Rolling Eyes

And, yes, there is no "we" who does anything.
now, did that really "help"?
since there is no one here
and no one to help anyone
or anyone to be helped
and no one and nothing needs help
Rolling Eyes

yet, typing happens
and the question, the seeking
creates the anwer, the sought.

what else is there to do??????



Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is how I would answer that for myself:

Is there suffering if I cut off my leg?

If you mean - will there be an experience of pain, then yes, of course, I would think so.

If you mean would there be a mind stream of thoughts like: “oh, I am wounded, what will happen to me, my life is ruined because I lost my leg, I am less of a person, etc, then the answer is no, as I KNOW I am not the body mind (which are just thoughts appearing, yet still carry power). For the same reason I am no longer afraid of death (dying may be painful, though…).

As I understand how suffering is defiined in the ND world it is usually meant to be suffering over fear/protection of the body/mind due to identification with it. Once that identification ends, then “suffering” ends (maybe not entirely, but to a large degree, probably deepening over time).

So,
yes, a leg would appear to be cut off
and
yes, there would be pain and "suffering"
and
no, there would be "no one" that it is happening "to".

I really like the holodeck example here.
If you cut off a holodeck's person's leg, is anyone hurt?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaveK wrote:
toombaru wrote:
nemo wrote:
even tougher to do with only one leg, yes?

Razz




I have heard that some of Tony's more ardent followers want to make a religious artifact and build a shrine with the amputated leg.

.............something about: "One Leg Up on Enlightenment".


Thank God for humor! I need to laugh when I find myself neck-deep in illogical, semantic, gobblygoop!


but, wouldn't that leave him with no leg to stand on.
oh, the puns.....
Rolling Eyes Wink Laughing
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