awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index awakeningtothedream.com
Non Duality: The one question to all our answers.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Tony Parsons' leg amputation
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index -> Awakening to the Dream
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

then again, it's just more words
at some point, at least so far, when talking about this, I run smack into
Knowing [just] IS
Understanding [just] IS


I just can't put it into words, any words are not it. They force subject/object where there is only one, no separation. Yet cleary "get" (direct insight appearing as symbols-thoughts in another symbol - mind?) that the understood and the understander are one - "exist" (if existence can be said to occur beyond thought and consciousness) simultaneously, beyond concepts of time/space.

Like trying to stare at a mote in one's eye. Or trying to make one of the 3d stereograms come into focus.
_________________
Expanding Heart & Melting Mind
http://nemos-notes.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More tinkering with the last michael post.

I'm with you nemo:

gagahh

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
... cannot the projection be aware it is a projection though direct insight into itself?


Is this a 'hypothetical' question, or direct observation/knowing?

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
nemo wrote:
... cannot the projection be aware it is a projection though direct insight into itself?


Is this a 'hypothetical' question, or direct observation/knowing?

Love


not a hypothetical question.
It's difficult to put into words (like trying to stuff an elephant into a mouse suit...)
but there seems to be "nothing" that immedietly precedes symbols/percption/knowing
this nothing cannot be described (by me, at least), yet it is at least be inferred by it's affect on what can be perceived/knnown/observed.
When "getting" the idea of subject with no object there was some insight (whatever an insight is - an intuituve "yes, that's it, inherent recognition of validity, truth recognizing itself?) that proceeded the appearance pf symbols in consciousness and then symbols appeared: "subject without object".
Direct insight is not perception and not abstract conceptualization, this is something else.
I understand that any symbols, no matter how "right" they seem are still just pointers to that which can't be symbolized - yet, some pointers "feel" to be more "right" or "direct" than others.
or, maybe, since all symbols and pointers are reflections and projections of that which cannot be known or named, the symbols themselves are aware...perhaps this direct insight is pure awareness aware of itself, in the "form" of symbols....gaggh
i dunno...
Embarassed Razz
_________________
Expanding Heart & Melting Mind
http://nemos-notes.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for a long time I had read the words "subject without object" .
I "understood", intellectually what that implied and meant.
Yet, there came a moment when insight/realization/call it what you will, "appeared" and then the "true" impact and power of the words "subject without object" were felt/regcognized
When "The Understood and the understander are one at the same time, out side of time" was felt to be a powerful, direct pointer to that which cannot be captured in language or symbols.
resulting in
"Understanding IS"
These symbols came unbidden
yet "felt" dead on, rock solid

as well as the same "knowing" and insight that "I" am the source of all beyond thoguhts and perceptions, and at the same time am the source of the thoughts and perceptions.
_________________
Expanding Heart & Melting Mind
http://nemos-notes.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i really enjoyed Michael's post because it captured the feeling of no one.
There is only knowing and nothing known and no knower. Or the known and the knower are one and cannot be separated. Maybe the “process of” the knower knowing the known is what we call duality.
Sheesh
Rolling Eyes
_________________
Expanding Heart & Melting Mind
http://nemos-notes.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
i really enjoyed Michael's post because it captured the feeling of no one.
There is only knowing and nothing known and no knower. Or the known and the knower are one and cannot be separated. Maybe the “process of” the knower knowing the known is what we call duality.
Sheesh
Rolling Eyes




Perhaps you are still thinking that THIS can be conceptualized?




Rolling Eyes

(When I get to this spot........I remember that this is the same mind that had trouble with algebra in high school.)



Laughing



toombaru
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, not knowing what "THIS" you are talking about.
if you mean appearances in form -then it's all concept.
If you mean that which cannot be conceptualized, then no.

and, yes, your mind that had trouble with algebra will never "get it".

yet, insight/apperception (direct knowing w/out concepts) IS
_________________
Expanding Heart & Melting Mind
http://nemos-notes.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:


Perhaps you are still thinking that THIS can be conceptualized?


Rolling Eyes

(When I get to this spot........I remember that this is the same mind that had trouble with algebra in high school.)



Laughing



toombaru


yet, when dealing in dualistic language this old mind and dualistic language is all I've got (sigh, and there is no mind, there is no I , blah , blah, blah, insert obligitory ND caveats here...)
_________________
Expanding Heart & Melting Mind
http://nemos-notes.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
DaveK



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Michael, for your in depth Holodeck analogy. I can truly see how that could work as you describe.

I think that I am moving away from worrying about how it could all work and away from apparent contradictions like the whole leg amputation thing that started this thread.

Now, I am more concerned with what I should do or not do to wake up. Nisargadatta advises me to be 100% devoted to realization. Ramana Maharshi advices unceasing self inquiry. But Tony Parsons, Gangaji, and others emphasize that seeking solidifies the illusion that I'm not already home.

Ack! Confused

Dave

P.S.

Thank you to everyone else for your comments and insights. I've been finding it all quite helpful!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1065
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
also, please see:
Matrix 1
Vanilla Sky (one of my favourits "Tech Support - I want to wake up...")
Total Recall

for similar themes

Thanks for the list. I'd forgotten about a couple of these.

Another very good one is "The Thirteenth Floor" (starring Armin Mueller-Stahl, Craig Bierko)... You'll definitely recognize michael's "holodek" theme, but with a slightly different twist than the kirk/spock version. To add to the "fun" 13th Floor is also a murder mystery of intertwining virtual worlds, and a surpirse ending.


Love
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1065
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
And as for your forgetfullness dear maple3 (so nice to see you back):

maple3 wrote:
michael wrote:
Hi maple3.

Lies you say. Hmmm

Agreed... if one thinks about the words and what they mean.

But as pointers to the fact of seeing feeling hearing smelling tasting and knowing?

Love


Sorry michael,

This mood... hmm, doesn't seem like the type for a good conversation. Smile

But michael, that was me apologizing to you. So just how did it get turned around where you apologized to me? Rolling Eyes

Or maybe it's all the same, huh? Wink
You know, I really can't always keep up with all of this stuff. Rolling Eyes

michael wrote:
Well now you're both here (where else), perhaps you'd like to join 'me' on the holodek again. Perhaps we can explore this holographic world together, and in the process, who knows what may appear. Very Happy

Sit here and put these helmets on. This time you get to play kirk

We get to play "kirk"? Hey michael, don't they have any "girls" on your holodek. Rolling Eyes

michael wrote:
(sorry Dave, you'll have to wait your turn Crying or Very sad Very Happy )

Ya see, michael really does know the difference between boys and girls. Just see how fast he kicks DaveK to the curb? Laughing

michael wrote:
Zssst.

I'm thinking this really must be a "guy" thing, cause girls hardly ever go "Zssst." Laughing


michael wrote:
More tinkering with the last michael post.

Aw man!... you mean I gotta read that whole thing again?! arrggh! Rolling Eyes

michael wrote:
I'm with you...

Ha! ... this is really funny Laughing ... and also inevitably true. Wink Very Happy


Love
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaveK wrote:
... I can truly see how that could work as you describe.


Hi Dave. The point of the story is not to show 'how it all works'... no idea Shocked Very Happy

The point is to show, whether you believe the source of awareness is 'material brains' or 'consciousness', everything that seems 'real' is illusion (even brains)... based on meaning and sensation.

It is impossible to 'get beyond' 'sensations' and 'meaning' to sense or know the source of sensing and knowing.

The joy is that there is no separate person who needs to 'sense' or 'know'... sensing and knowing is 'self evident'... it is 'who' 'you' really are, isn't it Very Happy

DaveK wrote:
... Now, I am more concerned with what I should do or not do to wake up. Nisargadatta advises me to be 100% devoted to realization. Ramana Maharshi advices unceasing self inquiry. But Tony Parsons, Gangaji, and others emphasize that seeking solidifies the illusion that I'm not already home.


How can you be 100% devoted to 'self enquiry' and already 'be home'?

Well, it is easy... more natural than breathing.

Observe (sense and know)... which is what is happening anyway!

In 'observation' (sensing and knowing), the illusion may be seen to be what it is: 'sensing and knowing' and not what it appears to be: 'a material me in a material world'.

Of course, DaveK cannot respond to this pointer, ‘DaveK’ is what is ‘sensed and known’ – not just ‘the body’, or the ‘thoughts and feelings’ of ‘DaveK , but the whole ‘DaveK experience’… what it is to see ‘the world’ from ‘DaveK’s perspective’.

And ‘sensing and knowing’ (also called 'consciousness') is in no need of pointers to be what it is. Very Happy

And yet I write as if DaveK is conscious... for that is this story.

And in the process of writing and reading an Ah Ha! may appear, but it is not the seeming process that is the cause of any insight.

It is like a set of dominos lined up with the first domino given a push. In falling, the first gives the next along a push and so on. On face value it may appear that the cause of the falling dominos was the first push.

But observe/know: the sequence of events is determined by the whole set-up. In this 'human' analogy, it includes the person who made the dominos, the person who placed them and pushed them and gravity. And of course (in human terms) gravity requires planets which have to be formed and first you need cells to make people and... As you see, nothing really happens 'by itself'... everything is connected to and depends upon everything else.

What has been described here is the inter-connectedness of events. It says nothing of 'meaning'.

What then is meaning? I cannot say, but here is a pointer.

Imagine the dominos are set up so they form the shape of a ‘tree’.

Now watch as the dominos fall, tracing patterns up the 'trunk' and along each 'branch'.

Now this 'tree pattern' is not in or of the falling dominos… they are just ‘falling dominos’ (though even this is not strictly correct… as we shall see). But accepting this for the moment, it is clear ‘tree’ is something ‘other’ than ‘falling dominos’. It is clear that this ‘tree meaning’ is 'known'. I cannot say how it is known. It is simply 'self evident' that the 'meaning' (tree) is known.

The falling dominos are also a pointer to the succession of 'events' that appear moment to moment... one pattern following the next in awareness. It is this 'sequencing of forms' that the mathematical formulations of science model. Another pointer to this phenomenon is the software in a computer. This software is not itself the 'form', it 'specifies' and 'orders' the forms/colours that appear on the screen and sounds emitted each moment.

Yet 'apparent life' is much more that just the sequencing of forms, or the ordering of 'events'... 'in awareness; It is really about 'meaning'... the knowing of 'forms' as apparently distinct entities and the story (meaning) that is related to the forms/events as they arise.

This is most easily seen in the computer screen analogy. Notice that the word ‘form’ points to recognition of some ‘separate thing’ apart from the colours on the screen. But ‘on the screen’ there really are no separate things… just colours. Without knowing ‘forms’ and ‘meaning’, it is self evident that the colours on the screen are as meaningless as the colours on an artists pallet. Just look at the screen from the perspective of a fly and the lack of meaning in the colours themselves is obvious.

What is so for the images ‘on the computer screen’ is so for all images… all sensations.

In themselves, sensations are meaningless. You can’t get meaning from meaningless sensations. Which is to say it is impossible to ‘learn’ (to construct meaning), through observing colours, sounds, flavours, odours and feelings… through experience. Pure sensation is just that… pure sensation... it can tell you nothing. Crying or Very sad

All apparent learning is just remembering what is already known... 'self evident'.

In the case of the domino example cited above, it is 'self evident' that the meaning 'tree' is associated with the image of the falling dominos. How it appears that ‘I’ thus see a ‘stylised tree’... no idea Very Happy

Love.
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring


Last edited by michael on Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:12 am; edited 9 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sara



Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 903
Location: below sea level

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
(sara, I hope this meal is not too rich, it is starting to get a bit thick and creamy... but we are nearly at the end, so hang in there) Very Happy


Wow! That holomeal from the replicator tasted Thanksgiving real!!! Every morsel was so delicious! Thank you so much, michael! But now I'm too full to move!

Must sleep now..... and have dreams within dreams!

love,
sleepy sara

"It's life, captain, but not life as we know it." Spock
_________________
There is only Love
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davek: Now, I am more concerned with what I should do or not do to wake up. Nisargadatta advises me to be 100% devoted to realization. Ramana Maharshi advices unceasing self inquiry. But Tony Parsons, Gangaji, and others emphasize that seeking solidifies the illusion that I'm not already home.


Toombaru advises you to try really hard to do exactly what you are doing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index -> Awakening to the Dream All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 3 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group