awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index awakeningtothedream.com
Non Duality: The one question to all our answers.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Looking beyond
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index -> Awakening to the Dream
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
heron
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject: Looking beyond Reply with quote

Leo wrote

"There's no need to concern yourself with judging Ramesh, and no need to accept the limiting concepts as to how a 'guru' should act. Look beyond the Ramesh character and find out if the pointers that come from 'there' resonate. That is all that counts. As Rumi said: "Do not look at my outward shape, but take what is in my hand."

Just as there is no Ramesh doing anything, there is no-one who can do "looking beyond" or "concerning yourself" or "accept limiting concepts" or "find out"......... or not.

..................and no-one who can avoid suggesting doing so.
Back to top
heron
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only the first para above is from Leo's newsletter.
Back to top
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no one to do anything,
yet everything gets done.
No one who breaths, thinks or feels,
yet there is breathing, thinking and feeling.
No one who can look anywhere,
yet here is looking at these words.

No choice maker, but plenty of choice.
Will that be tea or coffee, sir? Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
heron
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
There is no one to do anything,
yet everything gets done.
No one who breaths, thinks or feels,
yet there is breathing, thinking and feeling.
No one who can look anywhere,
yet here is looking at these words.

No choice maker, but plenty of choice.
Will that be tea or coffee, sir? Very Happy


..............apparantly
Back to top
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday I hurt my finger in the garden and boy, do I still feel it.
Now the word 'apparently' popped up and it still hurts.
Then there are the words: There is no one to hurt the finger,
there is no finger, no yesterday, no hurt and no garden.
And it still hurts..... apparently of course. Rolling Eyes

"First there is a mountain.
Then there is no mountain.
Then there is."

"First there is a finger.
Then there is no finger.
Then there is."

...apparently... Question
...or not at all... Question

Time to change the bandage. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
heron
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
Yesterday I hurt my finger in the garden and boy, do I still feel it.
Now the word 'apparently' popped up and it still hurts.
Then there are the words: There is no one to hurt the finger,
there is no finger, no yesterday, no hurt and no garden.
And it still hurts..... apparently of course. Rolling Eyes

"First there is a mountain.
Then there is no mountain.
Then there is."

"First there is a finger.
Then there is no finger.
Then there is."

...apparently... Question
...or not at all... Question

Time to change the bandage. Very Happy


Convincing illusion isn't it?...............but nevertheless illusion.

ALL is equally the One whether "first there is a.....", "then there is no.........." or "then there is". No progression required or possible in the unchanging whole that is ALL.
Back to top
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:

Convincing illusion isn't it?...............but nevertheless illusion.

ALL is equally the One whether "first there is a.....", "then there is no.........." or "then there is". No progression required or possible in the unchanging whole that is ALL.


Calling it real is an illusion.
Calling it an illusion is equally an illusion.
Thinking that we can know it
by calling it anything at all is an illusion.

It makes no difference what it is called
as it is all names, yet beyond all names.

In the 'first there is, then there is not' story, I do not feel that progression is implied. On the contrary, it seems to say that progression is an illusion. After calling it a mountain, then calling it an appearance, there simply is a mountain.

The same goes for the 'gateless gate' metaphor. There seems to be a point one has to pass to (drum roll please!) 'reach enlightenment' and one may conclude that progression is implicit. On stepping through this gate, both the gate and the 'traveler' have disappeared. It is seen that there never was a gate and no traveler to go through it. The suggestion of progress is in the dualistic nature of words, but the words are just the pointing finger. When the moon is seen, there is no need to discus the finger.

That's what I like about the Zen spirit. At some point all attempts at labeling it correctly are abandoned and in doing so water is called water, and fire is called fire. Yet there is room for heady poetry, humor, and for the ordinary things of life. To be politically correct all the time is called ‘The stink of Zen”

In Zen, calling the mountain an illusion, a 'Zen blow' may follow,
Cal it real and a 'Zen blow' may follow.
Now what is it? To tell you the truth Heron…No idea.
And I’m comfortable with that ‘not knowing.’

The wind still blows and a glass of wine is still a glass of wine.
Saying this may bring out ‘the Advaita police' but I'll take my chances;
maybe they let me get away with it this time.

A sudden crash of thunder.
The mind doors burst open,
and there sits the ordinary old man.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fox



Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 821
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Calling it real is an illusion.
Calling it an illusion is equally an illusion.


or how about this...:


when you say it is real, you assert
when you say it is not real, you deny

beyond assertion and denial - what is it?


Question


Exclamation


Idea
_________________
Atheists responsible for Adolf Hitler's cruelties?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox wrote:
beyond assertion and denial - what is it?


Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with you on this one Leo... and heron Cool

Anything experienced is what it appears to be and words like 'mountain' are not the appearance. The mountain is the mountain... whatever that is. Very Happy

Of course, although I see 'a mountain', it is not 'the mountain' that I see. Confused Shocked

In itself, at any 'instant of time', 'the mountain' is of a specific size, shape and composition in relation to all other 'things'. I can never see this mountain. I only know it.

What I see is infinitely variable. That which varies (the appearance) cannot be 'like' that which is fixed... 'the mountain'. And yet there is a certain 'correspondence' for despite the variance in the appearance I still see the image 'as' the mountain...

Seen from space, the apparent mountain is a pimple on the surface of a sphere, at a distance it seems like a hill on the horizon, closer it seems to tower above and, clinging to a rock face 5,000 meters up in an ice storm, it appears to be something else again. What is the 'real' mountain?

From the perspective of a geophysicist, 'the mountain' is different again. It is its mineral composition and the geologic processes that gave it birth in ages past, through to its eventual weathering away.

And in itself?... though it is known, there is no idea 'what' 'the mountain' is.

As for illusion. It is all definition. Illusion is the appearance of a 'thing' where no 'thing' exists.

In a dream, it is clear that 'things' appear, yet in ordinary parlance they don't really 'exist'. Hence a dream is called 'illusion'... though it appears real from the perspective of the dreamer.

No difference to 'waking life'.

If anyone is interested Very Happy , there is a simple test. Hold a finger erect about 20-30cm from your face and look into the distance. How many fingers do you see?

Two fingers seen where you 'know' that only one 'exists'. Which one is the 'real' finger? The one seen on the left, or the one seen on the right, or the one you know to be the 'single finger'?

As for 'illusion', two (coloured shapes) are seen so they 'exist' in the seeing as they are seen... they are thus 'real' to the seeing. And the one finger that is known also exists... in the knowing, and is thus 'real' to the knowing.

The illusion exists in the apparent disconnect between the objects seen and the objects known.

There are no objects seen... only colours.

Only as objects are known, do they appear to the seeing.

For example, it is possible to see colours forming what is called a face and yet not see a face. In a milder form, it is called ‘prosopagnosia’, the inability to recognise individual faces. If the colours seen were an actual ‘thing’ (the face of a good friend, your mother, or even your own face in the mirror), how could they not be seen as such?

Words… the only means of expression in a textual forum. Crying or Very sad Cool Very Happy

All this appears like analysis if it is thought about… that to which these words point is self evident.

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
I'm with you on this one Leo... and heron Cool

Anything experienced is what it appears to be and words like 'mountain' are not the appearance. The mountain is the mountain... whatever that is. Very Happy

Of course, although I see 'a mountain', it is not 'the mountain' that I see. Confused Shocked

In itself, at any 'instant of time', 'the mountain' is of a specific size, shape and composition in relation to all other 'things'. I can never see this mountain. I only know it.

What I see is infinitely variable. That which varies (the appearance) cannot be 'like' that which is fixed... 'the mountain'. And yet there is a certain 'correspondence' for despite the variance in the appearance I still see the image 'as' the mountain...

Seen from space, the apparent mountain is a pimple on the surface of a sphere, at a distance it seems like a hill on the horizon, closer it seems to tower above and, clinging to a rock face 5,000 meters up in an ice storm, it appears to be something else again. What is the 'real' mountain?

From the perspective of a geophysicist, 'the mountain' is different again. It is its mineral composition and the geologic processes that gave it birth in ages past, through to its eventual weathering away.

And in itself?... though it is known, there is no idea 'what' 'the mountain' is.

As for illusion. It is all definition. Illusion is the appearance of a 'thing' where no 'thing' exists.

In a dream, it is clear that 'things' appear, yet in ordinary parlance they don't really 'exist'. Hence a dream is called 'illusion'... though it appears real from the perspective of the dreamer.

No difference to 'waking life'.

If anyone is interested Very Happy , there is a simple test. Hold a finger erect about 20-30cm from your face and look into the distance. How many fingers do you see?

Two fingers seen where you 'know' that only one 'exists'. Which one is the 'real' finger? The one seen on the left, or the one seen on the right, or the one you know to be the 'single finger'?

As for 'illusion', two (coloured shapes) are seen so they 'exist' in the seeing as they are seen... they are thus 'real' to the seeing. And the one finger that is known also exists... in the knowing, and is thus 'real' to the knowing.

The illusion exists in the apparent disconnect between the objects seen and the objects known.

There are no objects seen... only colours.

Only as objects are known, do they appear to the seeing.

For example, it is possible to see colours forming what is called a face and yet not see a face. In a milder form, it is called ‘prosopagnosia’, the inability to recognise individual faces. If the colours seen were an actual ‘thing’ (the face of a good friend, your mother, or even your own face in the mirror), how could they not be seen as such?

Words… the only means of expression in a textual forum. Crying or Very sad Cool Very Happy

All this appears like analysis if it is thought about… that to which these words point is self evident.

Love





Mountains...................slow moving earth waves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is one concept. Very Happy

... whatever 'slow', 'moving', 'earth', and 'waves' are Question Confused Cool Very Happy

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael, your playfulness with words is appreciated. What my post wanted to say is that explaining does not really explain anything, yet it is possible to ‘know’ what is meant. Just like a joke may make you laugh without ever ‘explaining’ what humor is. Here it is understood that your post –as well as the ‘first there is a mountain’ pointer- is all about mountains and yet it is not about mountains at all.

When you say “What I see is infinitely variable.” I could jump on that sentence and say: “There is only seeing and no ‘I’ doing the seeing.” This is what is known as the ‘Advaita Police, or the ‘stink of Zen.’ And god knows that I sometimes were that uniform and aftershave too… Rolling Eyes

Certainly, when you would post a question in which you say something like “Who is it that sees?” then it could be a valid response, but to ‘lift’ this sentence out of what you say now, does not seem very constructive. (Sirens go of, blue flashing lights approaching …. Nothing to construct…no one to be constructive….it is as it is…. )

I enjoy the poetic expressions lately in the forum, and sometimes I enjoy saying “I enjoy.” And sometimes I enjoy saying “Presence appearing as enjoyment.”

Just the simplicity of This, and yet the unspeakable Mystery present prior to anything any one can say. ‘Angels on wings of thought’ and ‘Slow moving earth waves’ all welcome and treasured …. And then there always is the implicit understanding that the page under the words says it more clearly then any concept; suddenly there is the not-knowing smile, and a wink…shared here with my Self. Do I hear the words Neti Neti?

Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
heron
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
heron wrote:

Convincing illusion isn't it?...............but nevertheless illusion.

ALL is equally the One whether "first there is a.....", "then there is no.........." or "then there is". No progression required or possible in the unchanging whole that is ALL.


Calling it real is an illusion.
Calling it an illusion is equally an illusion.
Thinking that we can know it
by calling it anything at all is an illusion.

It makes no difference what it is called
as it is all names, yet beyond all names.

In the 'first there is, then there is not' story, I do not feel that progression is implied. On the contrary, it seems to say that progression is an illusion. After calling it a mountain, then calling it an appearance, there simply is a mountain.

The same goes for the 'gateless gate' metaphor. There seems to be a point one has to pass to (drum roll please!) 'reach enlightenment' and one may conclude that progression is implicit. On stepping through this gate, both the gate and the 'traveler' have disappeared. It is seen that there never was a gate and no traveler to go through it. The suggestion of progress is in the dualistic nature of words, but the words are just the pointing finger. When the moon is seen, there is no need to discus the finger.

That's what I like about the Zen spirit. At some point all attempts at labeling it correctly are abandoned and in doing so water is called water, and fire is called fire. Yet there is room for heady poetry, humor, and for the ordinary things of life. To be politically correct all the time is called ‘The stink of Zen”

In Zen, calling the mountain an illusion, a 'Zen blow' may follow,
Cal it real and a 'Zen blow' may follow.
Now what is it? To tell you the truth Heron…No idea.
And I’m comfortable with that ‘not knowing.’

The wind still blows and a glass of wine is still a glass of wine.
Saying this may bring out ‘the Advaita police' but I'll take my chances;
maybe they let me get away with it this time.

A sudden crash of thunder.
The mind doors burst open,
and there sits the ordinary old man.




Its only an illusion in this story Leo.

Illusions within illusions.

Correct or incorrect, stink or no stink, blows or no blows..............Its all the same in this story.

Love dreams difference where there is none.
Back to top
nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 213
Location: NorCal

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's a real illusion.
_________________
Expanding Heart & Melting Mind
http://nemos-notes.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index -> Awakening to the Dream All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group