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Are there objects "out there"???
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ThisIsIt



Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 37
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

I am trying to fit *my* understanding ... of what is seen by *me* ... with what I read and hear from time to time ...

My question is about the existence of objects ... ANY objects, on the one hand ... "out there" ... versus what is APPARENTLY seen ...

Tony Parsons often says things like "There is NO AFRICA ... There is NO CHINA ... There is ONLY THIS!!" It seems as if he is saying there is nothing outside of one's experience ... which is different than saying you can't be SURE of what's outside your experience ...

Other writers seem to imply that there are NO OBJECTS at all any"Where" at all ...

From *my* experience, the only thing I can honestly assert is that I can only be sure of what arises in THIS for *me* ... that is, I can only be certain of the APPEARANCE itself. Whether there is indeed a "mountain" when a "mountain is seen" would seem to be an open question. That is, that the existence of the mountain my SEEM to be true, but cannot be verified beyond one's experience. So that the idea that we can be CERTAIN of what is seen would be called into question.

However, sometimes in my readings and listenings it seems that it is asserted by "some" that INDEED THERE ARE NO OBJECTS. Full Stop!! Not only can we not be CERTAIN whether there are "objects out there" ... but that there are simply no objects ... only experiences arising.

While I can certainly *understand* that the existence of objects may not be 100% verifiable beyond one's experience ... it seems that a 100% DENIAL of their existence would also not be verifiable.

Perhaps I mis-read what others have said. I invite clarification from *you guys* ...

As if to answer my own question there is this quote from Nisargadatta which seems to verify my own sense :

"Is there a world outside your knowledge? Can you go beyond what you know? You may postulate a world beyond the mind, but it will remain a concept, unproved and unprovable. Your experience is your proof, and it is valid for you only. Who else can have your experience, when the other person is only as real as he appears in your experience? "

Yet, as I said earlier, others seem to posit a more radical position.

... I'd like to add that I do NOT ask this question casually ... intellectually ... but rather because it seems to strike at the heart of how *I* relate to my understanding of who *I* am, of what *all this* is ... of the very understanding and seeing of ONE.

When I am "away from home", do I still have a wife? do I still have a home? Confused

With love, Stephen
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

ThisIsIt wrote:
I am trying to fit *my* understanding ... of what is seen by *me* ... with what I read and hear from time to time ...

My question is about the existence of objects ... ANY objects, on the one hand ... "out there" ... versus what is APPARENTLY seen ...

Tony Parsons often says things like "There is NO AFRICA ... There is NO CHINA ... There is ONLY THIS!!" It seems as if he is saying there is nothing outside of one's experience ... which is different than saying you can't be SURE of what's outside your experience ...

Other writers seem to imply that there are NO OBJECTS at all any"Where" at all ...

From *my* experience, the only thing I can honestly assert is that I can only be sure of what arises in THIS for *me* ... that is, I can only be certain of the APPEARANCE itself. Whether there is indeed a "mountain" when a "mountain is seen" would seem to be an open question. That is, that the existence of the mountain my SEEM to be true, but cannot be verified beyond one's experience. So that the idea that we can be CERTAIN of what is seen would be called into question.

However, sometimes in my readings and listenings it seems that it is asserted by "some" that INDEED THERE ARE NO OBJECTS. Full Stop!! Not only can we not be CERTAIN whether there are "objects out there" ... but that there are simply no objects ... only experiences arising.

While I can certainly *understand* that the existence of objects may not be 100% verifiable beyond one's experience ... it seems that a 100% DENIAL of their existence would also not be verifiable.

Perhaps I mis-read what others have said. I invite clarification from *you guys* ...

As if to answer my own question there is this quote from Nisargadatta which seems to verify my own sense :

"Is there a world outside your knowledge? Can you go beyond what you know? You may postulate a world beyond the mind, but it will remain a concept, unproved and unprovable. Your experience is your proof, and it is valid for you only. Who else can have your experience, when the other person is only as real as he appears in your experience? "

Yet, as I said earlier, others seem to posit a more radical position.

... I'd like to add that I do NOT ask this question casually ... intellectually ... but rather because it seems to strike at the heart of how *I* relate to my understanding of who *I* am, of what *all this* is ... of the very understanding and seeing of ONE.

When I am "away from home", do I still have a wife? do I still have a home? :?

With love, Stephen






Some thoughts:


The only 'world' that the sentient being is privy to occurs after the stimulus has passed through its personal filters.

The 'being's' entire reality swirls within the synaptic interchange deep in the brain.

The accumulation of mnemonic debris, within human sentience, mysteriously produces a phantom.....an occlusion that exists only within the self-referential loop of conceptual thought.

The phantom peers out through its memory and plays out its life in a personal kingdom of concepts.


This is the 'dream of separation' of which the sages speak.



Separate objects exist only within mentation....they have no separate distinct non-relatioal existence on their own.

Where does the 'mountain' end and the 'valley' begin?

Is a 'river' ever separated from the 'ocean'?

Is a 'bracelet' ever anything but gold?

Where was the state of Texas a thousand years ago?


The obscuration and mistaking of concepts for reality is the root cause of all human suffering.

From this myopic plenum emerges all wars...all greed...all addictions.

'Objects' have no separate reality.

The realization of this is beyond conceptual thought.

Conceptual thought accounts for and exists only within the milieu of illusory separation.

There is no difference between conceptual thought and objectification.

They are conjoined twins ...connected at the brain.


The 'Oneness' of which the sages speak is forever unavailable to the thinking mind...as the mind is not separate from it.

Taken a tiny step further and over the edge of thought.........

If everything is one thing..............nothing exists........nothing ever happened.






Well..............old toombaru is falling .......falling now...............


thanks a lot.


He's not sure exactly where he was supposed to go today.
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nemo



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question defines and forms the answer. Therefore, look more deeply at your question.
Your question contains many subtle (and not so subtle) assumptions of separation.

Perhaps you will find it fruitful to start by defining terms such as:
Existence
Object
Internal and External (in here vs. out there)
I and My
Here and There


Where does the meaning of what you read and hear come from? (michael...take it away Wink


All is true and all is untrue.
All form is emptiness and all emptiness is form.

I think while some of this can be grasped "intellectually", the full impact of the "experience" as being/knowing the "truth" is different.

You may find this post useful:
http://wakethemup.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=9

You may wish to start with the question:
What do I know to be TRUE for a FACT.
>If this doesn't keep you up nights, you can try:
How do I know I know?
Who (or what) is it that knows?
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nemo



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:

The only 'world' that the sentient being is privy to occurs after the stimulus has passed through its personal filters.

The 'being's' entire reality swirls within the synaptic interchange deep in the brain.



This is a subtle and common "story"/pointer - the idea that sensations come "in" and are perceived.

While I certainly understand the model given, what if that is not it at all, but simply appears that way.
What if seeing happens w/out "external" stimulus, which is assumed in the model above.
There is nothing "to be seen". The seeing, the seen and the seer are all one, so how can there be an "external stimulus"?
Again, I get that it's all just symbols and models and one is not righter than another.
Occaisionaly, a different model presents itself and I share it here.
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epi



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perception


"that which is always becoming and never is," plato


"only the mind is born , not you" nisargadatta
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
toombaru wrote:

The only 'world' that the sentient being is privy to occurs after the stimulus has passed through its personal filters.

The 'being's' entire reality swirls within the synaptic interchange deep in the brain.



This is a subtle and common "story"/pointer - the idea that sensations come "in" and are perceived.

While I certainly understand the model given, what if that is not it at all, but simply appears that way.
What if seeing happens w/out "external" stimulus, which is assumed in the model above.
There is nothing "to be seen". The seeing, the seen and the seer are all one, so how can there be an "external stimulus"?
Again, I get that it's all just symbols and models and one is not righter than another.
Occaisionaly, a different model presents itself and I share it here.




Thank you nemo.

Ramana and quite a few others suggest that we 'go back the way we came'....back though the I am...etc.

It seems here that one starts the trip first by moving back through conceptual thought.....

As the 'journey' continues......and understandings begin to accumulate.....one gets some perspective........but alas.....the further one gets from the dream home....the less he is able to articulate the experience.

The old concepts become more and more transparent and something....unspeakably beautiful...is seen ......pulsating behind the smoke screen.



This is That of which Leo and others here speak so eloquently.


In the 'journey to nowhere' one passes pilgrims who possess varying degrees of understanding...and the concepts appropriate to their needs emerge.

This is why ...I believe...that Nisargadatta didn't want people to discuss the ideas that came through him ...outside of that smokey little room.


love


toombaru
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nemo



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you too- understood. And I get the “de-evolution. Sorta like one must become someone before you can become no one
And a good teacher tells the student the "right thing" for where they are at the moment. And who can know where someone is, especially when there is no one! Lol

I was holding out an alternate viewpoint.

As for ramana and nisy and all teachers, for me there came a point when I had to stop even referring to them or using their pointers. I have to rely on my own, what comes to me - or not - good or bad - so even "simple, obvious" pointers like it is all Pure Awareness doesn't work for me. For me it must be all original (ie, not someone else's ) thought.

And, very well put, receding from the dream state it gets REAL hard to put "it" into words. I can easily reach a "place" w/o concepts. ok, fine, but that 's really hard to "share" and "post".
So, one pointer is I go into non-existence/pure being and come back out and try to write down the "impressions that came through the mind and senses" before I loose it!

<<No Advaita Police, please>>

Laughing
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nemo



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:


This is why ...I believe...that Nisargadatta didn't want people to discuss the ideas that came through him ...outside of that smokey little room.


I recently read that nisy said not to take what is in his books as applicable for all -
He said they were *specific teachings* for that person at that moment.
Surprised
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
toombaru wrote:


This is why ...I believe...that Nisargadatta didn't want people to discuss the ideas that came through him ...outside of that smokey little room.


I recently read that nisy said not to take what is in his books as applicable for all -
He said they were *specific teachings* for that person at that moment.
Surprised





Medicine....prescribed for a particular dis-ease.


(none of the faces seemed to fit)


toombaru
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michael



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi stephen.

Are there objects?

You 'know' there are.

As nemo suggests an object is its meaning and as toombaru says all meaning is inter-connected: 'mountain-valley-land-sea...' To completely understand each 'thing' it is necessary to know all.

Are there objects beyond this 'knowing' of them?

To answer this, go back to first principle...

Who asks the question: "are there objects?" ?

Beyond this...

It is all conjecture...

And no 'conjecture' can ever be 'real'...

Love

PS. see also post on 'No One'...

There is no 'out there' beyond 'no One'... beyond the edge of reason.

Love
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michael



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here's a repeat of an earlier post:

Anything experienced is what it appears to be and words like 'mountain' are not the appearance. The mountain is the mountain... whatever that is. Very Happy

Of course, although I see 'a mountain', it is not 'the mountain' that I see. Confused Shocked

In itself, at any 'instant of time', 'the mountain' is of a specific size, shape and composition in relation to all other 'things'. I can never see this mountain. I only know it.

What I see is infinitely variable. That which varies (the appearance) cannot be 'like' that which is fixed... 'the mountain'. And yet there is a certain 'correspondence' for despite the variance in the appearance I still see the image 'as' the mountain...

Seen from space, the apparent mountain is a pimple on the surface of a sphere, at a distance it seems like a hill on the horizon, closer it seems to tower above and, clinging to a rock face 5,000 meters up in an ice storm, it appears to be something else again. What is the 'real' mountain?

From the perspective of a geophysicist, 'the mountain' is different again. It is its mineral composition and the geologic processes that gave it birth in ages past, through to its eventual weathering away.

And in itself?... though it is known, there is no idea 'what' 'the mountain' is.

As for illusion. It is all definition. Illusion is the appearance of a 'thing' where no 'thing' exists.

In a dream, it is clear that 'things' appear, yet in ordinary parlance they don't really 'exist'. Hence a dream is called 'illusion'... though it appears real from the perspective of the dreamer.

No difference to 'waking life'.

If anyone is interested Very Happy , there is a simple test. Hold a finger erect about 20-30cm from your face and look into the distance. How many fingers do you see?

Two fingers seen where you 'know' that only one 'exists'. Which one is the 'real' finger? The one seen on the left, or the one seen on the right, or the one you know to be the 'single finger'?

As for 'illusion', two (coloured shapes) are seen so they 'exist' in the seeing as they are seen... they are thus 'real' to the seeing. And the one finger that is known also exists... in the knowing, and is thus 'real' to the knowing.

The illusion exists in the apparent disconnect between the objects seen and the objects known.

There are no objects seen... only colours.

Only as objects are known, do they appear to the seeing.

For example, it is possible to see colours forming what is called a face and yet not see a face. In a milder form, it is called ‘prosopagnosia’, the inability to recognise individual faces. If the colours seen were an actual ‘thing’ (the face of a good friend, your mother, or even your own face in the mirror), how could they not be seen as such?

Words… the only means of expression in a textual forum. Crying or Very sad Cool Very Happy

All this appears like analysis if it is thought about… that to which these words point is self evident.

Love
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cimages



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

ThisIsIt wrote:
I am trying to fit *my* understanding ... of what is seen by *me* ... with what I read and hear from time to time ...

My question is about the existence of objects ... ANY objects, on the one hand ... "out there" ... versus what is APPARENTLY seen ...

Tony Parsons often says things like "There is NO AFRICA ... There is NO CHINA ... There is ONLY THIS!!" It seems as if he is saying there is nothing outside of one's experience ... which is different than saying you can't be SURE of what's outside your experience ...

Other writers seem to imply that there are NO OBJECTS at all any"Where" at all ...

When I am "away from home", do I still have a wife? do I still have a home? Confused

With love, Stephen


I have been following this discussion for some time, all responses seems not to answer the question directly. A yes or no with an explanation would suffice. Confused

This question has been debated in a different form such as does matter exist? I will state unequivocally yes! Laughing

Illusion arises only from the perspective of what appears as you. Also within that illusion is that this you is a different thing from that which appears. Rolling Eyes

So does your wife exist when you’re away from home, the answer is once again YES! the illusion is, is that she is a different thing or individual from you. Embarassed

The sense of individuality is illusion! Awareness=Consciousness=Matter....is real!
Is there reality.....This answer is no! Shocked

Peace!.....Just be Cool! Cool...Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
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whonowz



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't the only apparent 'problem', that of trying to pin 'this' down with thought and idea? In seeing that anything said falls infinitely short, the quest for suitable explanations of this 'immeasurable now' tapers off naturally.
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nemo



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

cimages wrote:


I have been following this discussion for some time, all responses seems not to answer the question directly. A yes or no with an explanation would suffice. Confused

This question has been debated in a different form such as does matter exist? I will state unequivocally yes! Laughing


there you go stephen, you all clear now?

This is easily the funniest thing I have read in a long time. I'm glad to have that inquiry resolved.

Quote:
A yes or no with an explanation would suffice.

Confused

-- And here I go and take all that time crafting my reply when all I had to say was yes or no. Why didn't I think of that? Surprised

OK, Cimages, since you seem to be on a roll, I have a few more for you:
What is Reality?
Do I exist?
Can Teller (of Penn and Teller) speak?

LOL

Razz I am, of course, just having you on....Razz



Twisted Evil Crying or Very sad Embarassed Razz
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cimages



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
cimages wrote:


I have been following this discussion for some time, all responses seems not to answer the question directly. A yes or no with an explanation would suffice. Confused

This question has been debated in a different form such as does matter exist? I will state unequivocally yes! Laughing


there you go stephen, you all clear now?

This is easily the funniest thing I have read in a long time. I'm glad to have that inquiry resolved.

Quote:
A yes or no with an explanation would suffice.

Confused

-- And here I go and take all that time crafting my reply when all I had to say was yes or no. Why didn't I think of that? Surprised

OK, Cimages, since you seem to be on a roll, I have a few more for you:
What is Reality?
Do I exist?
Can Teller (of Penn and Teller) speak?

LOL

Razz I am, of course, just having you on....Razz

Twisted Evil Crying or Very sad Embarassed Razz


Hey Dude! You're welcome to have a laugh on me at any time, I know I do.

Now, do you exist? Of course you do, but not as what you currently perceive yourself to be.

Even if you think, or know, or perceive yourself to be the 'SELF' or the big C as in the main source of all consciousness. Because as you are currently experiencing what seems to be a reality of Nemo, as perceived by Nemo, from this you are not & can not experience yourself from the all knowing, all experiencing.... The One....that is currently epxressing it's self & having the experience of being Nemo.

Reality is that which is perceived, as experienced by a dream character that calls himself Nemo.

This is some fun stuff!

Thanks Nemo!....And by the way...Peace!...And just be cool! Cool
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