awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index awakeningtothedream.com
Non Duality: The one question to all our answers.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Are there objects "out there"???
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index -> Awakening to the Dream
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:45 am    Post subject: Re: Are there objects "out there"??? Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
Reality is that which is perceived, as experienced by a dream character that calls himself Nemo.


Hi cimages, turning reality on its head... Cool

But that's OK, who am I to complain. Very Happy

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages, as you know matter exists...

What is it?

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
cimages, as you know matter exists...

What is it?

Love


It is the substance that appears physically as Y-O-U, your body! As M-E, my body!

It is this, it is that!

It is the one....manifesting it's self.....as the many!

The many is illusion....as perceived by that which appears as the individual dream character of you. That which the many is based upon....is real!

Matter is another form of the one materializing as matter. Just as water, steam, ice, are all forms of the same substance as perceived in what appears as reality to you or I.

Peace!....Just be Cool! Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my body is made of matter.

OK. Taking the human perspective:

When I hold up a finger and look past it into the distance and see two fingers, for no apparent reason it appears that this 'substance' called 'matter' has magically divided itself into two and become semi-transparent, even though I know there is only one supposedly solid opaque finger? Confused

Or when I close my left eye and see my material nose on the left side of my visual field and then close my right eye and the nose has switched sides, it is really just the one material nose I am seeing in two places?

Or the little red dot that I see in the apparent distance (hardly bigger than my finger nail) is really a great big solid bus, that grows in size as it appears to approach and then grows smaller as it apparently recedes. So this 'matter' increases and decreases in size... even though I know that a bus is a bus of fixed size, shape and substance?

Seems very a strange 'substance'. Very Happy

How do I know my finger is 'solid'... because it feels solid. But a 'feeling' is not 'solidity'... in fact a 'feeling' is 'immaterial'!!! Cool

Another way to tell 'substance' is that material things don't pass through each other, instead they interact... just like dream images that also 'feel' solid. Shocked

How else do I know substance exists?

Seeing is 'immaterial', which is to say, it has no sensible qualities. Seeing cannot be seen, or sensed in any way. It cannot be measured, or analysed, or understood. Seeing simply sees... 'self evident'.

What seeing sees are colours. Colours are the seeing experience. Seeing and colours are one.

Colour is not a quality of matter. Colour, like seeing, cannot be measured, analysed or understood. Colour is simply seen. It exists only in consciousness.

Imagine a material universe in which there are no consciousnesses. You may say it is full of colour, but only because you (consciousness) are imagining it. Without consciousness to see colour, no colour could exist.

Being one with seeing, as seeing is 'immaterial', so too is 'colour'.

This seeing is the only seeing there is. It belongs to no one. It is one with consciousness... whatever this is Wink

All the rest is a story...

Including these words if you think about them. Cool

All the while, reality here in your no face. Very Happy

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
... as perceived by that which appears as the individual dream character of you.


That which appears as the individual dream character can perceive nothing... it is the perceived, not the perceiving.

cimages wrote:
... all forms of the same substance as perceived in what appears as reality to you or I


Nothing appears to 'you' or 'I'... we are the perceived. We do not even know of our own apparent existence. Shocked

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
cimages wrote:
... as perceived by that which appears as the individual dream character of you.


That which appears as the individual dream character can perceive nothing... it is the perceived, not the perceiving.

cimages wrote:
... all forms of the same substance as perceived in what appears as reality to you or I


Nothing appears to 'you' or 'I'... we are the perceived. We do not even know of our own apparent existence. Shocked

Love


Exactly!

The point being is from the perspective of you....and it doesn't matter if it is stated that you have no perspective, only that which perceives you or perceives it's self as you has the perspective, or however you want to state it.....can not determine if this or that is true or not from the perspective of… ‘being’….. you.

You state there is seeing & there are colors inseperatable from seeing. However that which expresses its self as you supposedly is experiencing this seeing but the act to see is not a required experience of consciousness if in fact there is nothing to see.

If you close your eyes things appear in 'your mind' or 'your consciousness’ without eyes seeing anything. This would be the only requirement of consciousness in a truly dream world. Thusly there would be no need to speak of seeing, eyes or color.

My point is very simple...There is seeing...There are objects being seen....There are actual physical people that materially appear to be you, I & everyone else.

The illusion occurs in three stages....Stage number one is, there is an ‘individual’ called Michael.....Stage number two is, Michael is a separate entity from all that Michael sees.

Stage number three is, that which Michael sees & experiences has a certain texture, taste, smell, look, color & feel that is unique to Michael, that create a reality that appears around Michael & creates Michaels sense of being an individual.

That which Michael sees & experiences is real but the illusion is created uniquely from what appears to be Michaels perspective or perception of that which is seen & experienced.


Reality…which there really is no such thing because what appears as you or I have no way of determining what this is while appearing as you or I…is this.

There is no person Michael from a conscious stand point of Michael having a separate consciousness that Michael can call his own. From this perspective Michael does nothing, chooses nothing, experiences nothing.

Michaels consciousness is the one & the same that calls it’s self me from what I think is my perspective.

While there are material objects, the sense that I am a separate physical entity from these other material objects is illusion. The illusion also lies in how this I see & experience what appear to be these other material objects.

For me….That’s it in a nut shell…but of course I am not determining this because there is no me to determine anything. And yet here I sit….THIS IS ILLUSION!


Peace!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
as you know matter exists...

What is it?

Love


Does it really matter?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
michael wrote:
as you know matter exists...

What is it?

Love


Does it really matter?


Well of course it matters....because if it didn't....there would be no game to play......how much fun would that be?

Peace!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:

What is it?

Love


This reminded me of a story I posted in news letter 35.

Meeting between Kalu Rinpoche and Zen master Seung Sahn

There's this wonderful story about the first meeting between Kalu Rinpoche and Zen master Seung Sahn:

The two monks entered with swirling robes - maroon and yellow for the Tibetan, austere gray and black for the Korean - and were followed by retinues of younger monks and translators with shaven heads ...

The Tibetan lama sat very still, fingering a wooden rosary (mala) with one hand while murmuring, 'Om mani padme hum,' continuously under his breath. The Zen master was already gaining fame for his method of hurling questions at his students until they were forced to admit their ignorance. He then would bellow at them, 'Keep that don't know mind!'

On this occasion the Zen master reached deep inside his robes and drew out an orange. 'What is this?' he demanded of the lama. 'What is this?'

This was a typical opening question, and we could feel him ready to pounce on whatever response he was given.

The Tibetan sat quietly fingering his mala and made no move to respond.

'What is this?' the Zen master insisted, holding the orange up to the Tibetan's nose.

Kalu Rinpoche bent very slowly to the Tibetan monk next to him who was serving as the translator, and they whispered back and forth for several minutes. Finally the translator addressed the room:

'Rinpoche says, What is the matter with him? Don't they have oranges where he comes from?'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
awakening wrote:
michael wrote:
as you know matter exists...

What is it?

Love


Does it really matter?

Well of course it matters....because if it didn't....there would be no game to play......how much fun would that be?
Peace!


Did you miss the little joke in that question cimages, or are you pulling my virtiual leg too Very Happy
Let me put it this way:
Does IT really MATTER?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
cimages wrote:
awakening wrote:
michael wrote:
as you know matter exists...

What is it?

Love


Does it really matter?

Well of course it matters....because if it didn't....there would be no game to play......how much fun would that be?
Peace!


Did you miss the little joke in that question cimages, or are you pulling my virtiual leg too Very Happy
Let me put it this way:
Does IT really MATTER?


Hmmmmmnnnn....Perhaps this is so simple....that it's too deep for me...because....I DON'T GET IT!

Peace!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never MIND... IT does NOT MATTER Very Happy

Though it seems IT does MATTER very well indeed. Shocked

Between 'seeming to do matter' and 'doing matter'...

is a small conjunction Cool

And if it is not seen, perhaps it is because you have

wait for it...

waaait for it...

waaaaiiiittt for it...

CONJUCTIVITIS Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dance matters....because there is only the dance! Laughing

If it doesn't matter..... I could become the....mad hatter! Wink

Peace!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo's right of course... call it anything you like, it does not matter.

The experience remains as it appears to be.

And yet...

What a 'thing' is called includes all the other concepts that are bundled up into the one name.

What are the concepts bundled into the word 'matter'?

Whatever concepts they are, they are not the experience, nor the experiencing.

Exploring concepts is a futile pastime.

And yet...

In unpicking the understanding (concept by concept)...

Like a spider re-absorbing its silk after the web has done its job, so all concepts are withdrawn into the self.

As dreams in a no-head, the whole world is contained in consciousness.

More concepts to think about, or not as the case may be... Very Happy

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
awakening
Site Admin


Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
I DON'T GET IT!

Peace!


The bad news: You never will.
The good news: There is no you to get it,
or not get it.

Got it Question
Or not... Very Happy

Or as Michael would say.....
"And yet... "
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    awakeningtothedream.com Forum Index -> Awakening to the Dream All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group