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heron
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
realeyes wrote:
There is no awakening. No one ever has or will. But it is fun to write about, talk about.....be amazed about or frustrated about.

But IT is much simpler than words. Words may be like a wood carver whittling a stick....slowly it gets smaller and smaller.....but he loves the process of whittling. He thinks he is creating something or transforming the wood into a work of art. More and more he works at creating this object he has in his mind. He has a vision of what it will be like when he is finished. Then one day he realizes there is nothing left to whittle. And there is great sadness, then laughter. And it is seen that there in fact was never even a wood carver. Nothing remains and out of nothing everything arises.


I asked the question as there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness, or what you call nothing, rather than just simply Oneness arising as not knowing.


...........not that there is anything right or wrong with frustration.
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
heron wrote:
realeyes wrote:
There is no awakening. No one ever has or will. But it is fun to write about, talk about.....be amazed about or frustrated about.

But IT is much simpler than words. Words may be like a wood carver whittling a stick....slowly it gets smaller and smaller.....but he loves the process of whittling. He thinks he is creating something or transforming the wood into a work of art. More and more he works at creating this object he has in his mind. He has a vision of what it will be like when he is finished. Then one day he realizes there is nothing left to whittle. And there is great sadness, then laughter. And it is seen that there in fact was never even a wood carver. Nothing remains and out of nothing everything arises.


I asked the question as there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness, or what you call nothing, rather than just simply Oneness arising as not knowing.


...........not that there is anything right or wrong with frustration.




Frustration is a by-product of faulty perception.

toombaru
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heron
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
heron wrote:
realeyes wrote:
There is no awakening. No one ever has or will. But it is fun to write about, talk about.....be amazed about or frustrated about.

But IT is much simpler than words. Words may be like a wood carver whittling a stick....slowly it gets smaller and smaller.....but he loves the process of whittling. He thinks he is creating something or transforming the wood into a work of art. More and more he works at creating this object he has in his mind. He has a vision of what it will be like when he is finished. Then one day he realizes there is nothing left to whittle. And there is great sadness, then laughter. And it is seen that there in fact was never even a wood carver. Nothing remains and out of nothing everything arises.


I asked the question as there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness, or what you call nothing, rather than just simply Oneness arising as not knowing.


...........not that there is anything right or wrong with frustration.




Frustration is a by-product of faulty perception.

toombaru
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heron
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
heron wrote:
realeyes wrote:
There is no awakening. No one ever has or will. But it is fun to write about, talk about.....be amazed about or frustrated about.

But IT is much simpler than words. Words may be like a wood carver whittling a stick....slowly it gets smaller and smaller.....but he loves the process of whittling. He thinks he is creating something or transforming the wood into a work of art. More and more he works at creating this object he has in his mind. He has a vision of what it will be like when he is finished. Then one day he realizes there is nothing left to whittle. And there is great sadness, then laughter. And it is seen that there in fact was never even a wood carver. Nothing remains and out of nothing everything arises.


I asked the question as there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness, or what you call nothing, rather than just simply Oneness arising as not knowing.


...........not that there is anything right or wrong with frustration.




Frustration is a by-product of faulty perception.

toombaru


In your story yes..........but not in this story. In this story there is no right or wrong perception.
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
heron wrote:
realeyes wrote:
There is no awakening. No one ever has or will. But it is fun to write about, talk about.....be amazed about or frustrated about.

But IT is much simpler than words. Words may be like a wood carver whittling a stick....slowly it gets smaller and smaller.....but he loves the process of whittling. He thinks he is creating something or transforming the wood into a work of art. More and more he works at creating this object he has in his mind. He has a vision of what it will be like when he is finished. Then one day he realizes there is nothing left to whittle. And there is great sadness, then laughter. And it is seen that there in fact was never even a wood carver. Nothing remains and out of nothing everything arises.


I asked the question as there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness, or what you call nothing, rather than just simply Oneness arising as not knowing.


...........not that there is anything right or wrong with frustration.




Frustration is a by-product of faulty perception.

toombaru


In your story yes..........but not in this story. In this story there is no right or wrong perception.



All stories are delusional.


toombaru
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realeyes



Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 33
Location: Ojai, California

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said: there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness...

Yes I concur, to the mind that thinks it is separate there is only frustration....well maybe some think they know it all or have a system or a goal to accomplish, a methodolgy which keeps them bound....the realm of thought always appears to be outside of oneness or separate from the person who still thinks he or she is an individual.

SO oneness appears to be separate in that case and outside of the mind....and it does sometimes even for those where awakening has happened...i.e....oneness has been seen.....there seems to be a going back and forth from meing to being....but I think everyone has this idea that awakening imples a certain state of consciousness or something different than 'normal'. We carry ideas of how it should be but in fact, nothing usually changs or needs to.....and also nothing is repressed and anything can arise, including frustration, anger, love, fear......but at a certain point....which Tony Parsons refers to as liberation...the subtle me that is still carried around disappears......and there is no sense of a personal self or a me....that drops away completely.....or so I am told. In liberation, all sense of there being a separate individual is gone. There is no one there.

We are terrified of losing control as if there is any control to be lost, and yet are deeply committed fo find that which is beyond control. But again, when one sees or senses or intuits the stillness that just is, the swirling thoughts lose their grip, fear becomes simply nameless energy with no one claiming ownership of it, everything just is as it is. Everything is happening at once, unity, blandness, boredom and such variety, and diversity.

And isn't it wonderful to have this forum to express and share?
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heron
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
heron wrote:
realeyes wrote:
There is no awakening. No one ever has or will. But it is fun to write about, talk about.....be amazed about or frustrated about.

But IT is much simpler than words. Words may be like a wood carver whittling a stick....slowly it gets smaller and smaller.....but he loves the process of whittling. He thinks he is creating something or transforming the wood into a work of art. More and more he works at creating this object he has in his mind. He has a vision of what it will be like when he is finished. Then one day he realizes there is nothing left to whittle. And there is great sadness, then laughter. And it is seen that there in fact was never even a wood carver. Nothing remains and out of nothing everything arises.


I asked the question as there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness, or what you call nothing, rather than just simply Oneness arising as not knowing.


...........not that there is anything right or wrong with frustration.




Frustration is a by-product of faulty perception.

toombaru


In your story yes..........but not in this story. In this story there is no right or wrong perception.



All stories are delusional.


toombaru


yes.....including the statement that all stories are delusional.
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heron
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

realeyes wrote:
You said: there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness...

Yes I concur, to the mind that thinks it is separate there is only frustration....well maybe some think they know it all or have a system or a goal to accomplish, a methodolgy which keeps them bound....the realm of thought always appears to be outside of oneness or separate from the person who still thinks he or she is an individual.

SO oneness appears to be separate in that case and outside of the mind....and it does sometimes even for those where awakening has happened...i.e....oneness has been seen.....there seems to be a going back and forth from meing to being....but I think everyone has this idea that awakening imples a certain state of consciousness or something different than 'normal'. We carry ideas of how it should be but in fact, nothing usually changs or needs to.....and also nothing is repressed and anything can arise, including frustration, anger, love, fear......but at a certain point....which Tony Parsons refers to as liberation...the subtle me that is still carried around disappears......and there is no sense of a personal self or a me....that drops away completely.....or so I am told. In liberation, all sense of there being a separate individual is gone. There is no one there.

We are terrified of losing control as if there is any control to be lost, and yet are deeply committed fo find that which is beyond control. But again, when one sees or senses or intuits the stillness that just is, the swirling thoughts lose their grip, fear becomes simply nameless energy with no one claiming ownership of it, everything just is as it is. Everything is happening at once, unity, blandness, boredom and such variety, and diversity.

And isn't it wonderful to have this forum to express and share?
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sara



Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 903
Location: below sea level

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

realeyes wrote:
And isn't it wonderful to have this forum to express and share?


When realeyes are smiling,

sure it's like a morning spring......

love,
sara Very Happy
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heron
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

realeyes wrote:
You said: there seemed to be frustration at not knowing as though not knowing was somehow 'outside' of Oneness...

Yes I concur, to the mind that thinks it is separate there is only frustration....well maybe some think they know it all or have a system or a goal to accomplish, a methodolgy which keeps them bound....the realm of thought always appears to be outside of oneness or separate from the person who still thinks he or she is an individual.

SO oneness appears to be separate in that case and outside of the mind....and it does sometimes even for those where awakening has happened...i.e....oneness has been seen.....there seems to be a going back and forth from meing to being....but I think everyone has this idea that awakening imples a certain state of consciousness or something different than 'normal'. We carry ideas of how it should be but in fact, nothing usually changs or needs to.....and also nothing is repressed and anything can arise, including frustration, anger, love, fear......but at a certain point....which Tony Parsons refers to as liberation...the subtle me that is still carried around disappears......and there is no sense of a personal self or a me....that drops away completely.....or so I am told. In liberation, all sense of there being a separate individual is gone. There is no one there.

We are terrified of losing control as if there is any control to be lost, and yet are deeply committed fo find that which is beyond control. But again, when one sees or senses or intuits the stillness that just is, the swirling thoughts lose their grip, fear becomes simply nameless energy with no one claiming ownership of it, everything just is as it is. Everything is happening at once, unity, blandness, boredom and such variety, and diversity.

And isn't it wonderful to have this forum to express and share?


In some subtlely conditional non-duality stories, it is not emphasised that liberation is an illusion, part of the dream, and not needed. Seekers are left with the idea that there is something to attain, and left in what they are lead to believe is an un-liberated or un-awakened state, waiting for the "subtle me", or some similar type of condition, to drop away.

The idea that there is a separate person is reinforced by this.

Good to express and share with you too realeyes.
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wizdumb



Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:45 pm    Post subject: IT Reply with quote

One my my fav's, foolishness.

More foolishness.

Are you aware of consciousness, at the instant you fall asleep ? Can you remember the instant right at unconsciousness ? Where does consciousness go ? And when you wake up, are you aware of consciousness at the instant of awakening ?

Almost sounds like DYING !
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: IT Reply with quote

wizdumb wrote:
One my my fav's, foolishness.

More foolishness.

Are you aware of consciousness, at the instant you fall asleep ? Can you remember the instant right at unconsciousness ? Where does consciousness go ? And when you wake up, are you aware of consciousness at the instant of awakening ?

Almost sounds like DYING !




What is this 'you' thing?



toombaru
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: IT Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
What is this 'you' thing?

toombaru


Good question. It is of course the corollary to "Who am I?".

I cannot say who or what I am.

What can be said without doubt?

... Here now is seeing, smelling, feeling, tasting, hearing and knowing...

Collectively called 'consciousness'.

This 'consciousness' is not seen, smelled, felt, tasted, heard or known... yet there is no argument (and no one to argue with) about this... it is simply 'self evident'.

To ask if this is so for 'you', is to presume some 'other' consciousness... of which there is no consciousness here and now.

Here now there is only this consciousness, and no other.

That which is 'seen, smelled, felt, tasted, heard and known' is inseparable from this consciousness... as dream images are inseparable from 'the dreamer'.

And, as in a dream, all images (all apparent things sensed) are not conscious, nor are they 'consciousness'. They are simply content.

As in a dream, all things sensed have no absolute shape or size, they are neither near nor far in relation to the 'dreamer'.

The content appears to change, though consiousness does not.

The content appears to be a 'world' seen from the persepctive of a specific person (michael).

It appears that michael has a body that moves about 'on/in the world', interacting with other people. It seems that michael has thoughts and feelings.

Yet who, what and where is 'michael' really?

Apart from the momentary 'subtle sounds' experienced as thoughts and other sensations that arise in consciousness, michael appears to exist in idea only.

This idea of michael appears to be inseparable from every other idea and appears to be infinitely complex... a truly wonderous idea!

It appears too that 'michael' is inseparable from the whole momentary experience manifested through sensation and knowing.

One answer to 'who is michael', is to say he is the person this moment appearing to type these words.

This experience, along with every other 'michael' experience from birth to death, defines who he is... from the perspective of 'michael'.

Yet 'michael' also interacts with many other people and each of those interactions also define who he is, as well as all the interactions with 'his' environment'... from 'birth' to 'death'.

So if this is 'michael'... who are you?

'You' are the same as michael, a momenatry combination of sensations and meaning... that provides both a specific 'viewpoint' or 'perspective' on the world as well as a 'character' in it... from birth to death.

The apparent world is a 'dream world', just as all characters are 'dream characters'.

And (like michael) all such characters have no awareness of their own existence or of anything else. Just like a dream character in a dream, they have no awareness at all.

The only awareness is that of 'consciousness'. This is a tautology.

As one is conscious of experiencing life from the perspective of michael, every other apparent person is 'you' and michael appears as 'I'.

From this 'I' perspective (michael) there is no awareness of thoughts and feelings and experiences from any other 'you' perspective.

As one is conscious of experiencing life from the perspective of some other apparent person (say toombaru), every other apparent person (including michael) is 'you' and toombaru appears as 'I'.

From this 'I' perspective (toombaru) there is no awareness of thoughts and feelings and experiences from any other 'you' perspective (including michael).

Yes, this too is a story, but nothing is said that is not known (all stories are known Wink )

Knowing the interconnection of all ideas/meaning, the power of One to manifest each story from every perspective via the senses is self evident.

The experience of life from the perspective of michael and from the perspective of toombaru and from all other perspectives is neither simultaneous nor concurrent... but is after all 'outside' time.

So as it seems that these words are written from the perspective of michael, so it seems that they are read from many other perspectives.

Such is the joy of this forum.

Here One relates the story of all stories to an audience of One many times over... between which is neither space nor time.

And in the telling, nothing is gained and nothing is lost.

Love dear One.
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wizdumb



Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I

Quote:
What is this 'you' thing?


Sorry, ewe !

Sometimes through intercourse, one uses words, which make sense or don't make cents.

"DISAMBIGUATION"

Quote:
Good question. It is of course the corollary to "Who am I?".

I cannot say who or what I am.

What can be said without doubt?

... Here now is seeing, smelling, feeling, tasting, hearing and knowing...

Collectively called 'consciousness'.



Mikey: BONZER
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sara



Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 903
Location: below sea level

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: IT Reply with quote

michael wrote:

So as it seems that these words are written from the perspective of michael, so it seems that they are read from many other perspectives.

Such is the joy of this forum.

Here One relates the story of all stories to an audience of One many times over... between which is neither space nor time.

And in the telling, nothing is gained and nothing is lost.

Love dear One.


This perspective is overjoyed that 'michael' has returned from his hopefully happy holidays! Very Happy

And agrees with Wizdum: "Mikey: BONZER" Laughing

love and hugs!
sara
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