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wArnInG!...."A pANdoRa'S bOx"!

 
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:24 pm    Post subject: wArnInG!...."A pANdoRa'S bOx"! Reply with quote

This is a warning to all of those that are considering making the journey down the road of Non-Duality/Advaita. Put this warning in perspective, this is simply my view, my experience. Once those initial steps are taken, the loss could be tremendous. It could mean the loss of you, the loss of your life, as you know it.

If you are unfamiliar with the term "Pandora's Box" do a Google search for it's meaning.

To my fellow forum members, I will be using regular expressions here to enhance the understanding of those readers that would not understand otherwise. This piece is not an attack on anyone & not meant to offend. If anyone is offended by what is being expressed, please accept my most humblest apologies. I consider myself one of you, I consider you, friends. Your assistance in this experience has been tremendous & I thank you for your caring & loving instructions, please think no less of me for what is about to be expressed.

Non Duality/Advaita............."A Pandora's Box"!

Approximately 20 years ago a young woman was kidnapped from a popular night spot that I frequented. She was brutally raped, beaten & murdered. Why is this story significant? It’s because this was the first time that I experienced something that I called transference.

I closed my eyes & I transferred myself into that young woman’s final moments on this earth. It was horrific, I will not describe to you, what to me, those final moments where like. But I asked myself, what could this young woman, all of 17 years of age, could have possibly done to deserve this. What sin could she have committed that God would allow this to happen. This was not right, this was not just, this was not fair.

Thusly began my journey away from thinking of this world, God, the life experience in the traditional sense & down the road of Non Duality.

Emotions are what applies depth & texture to the experience of life. Similar to colors applying depth & texture to what we see. Taste & flavors to what we consume. We are able to apply meaning & derive passion, based upon how this information is processed & absorbed. How we perceive these experiences give ourselves depth & texture, defines who we are.

Some of mankind’s greatest achievements have come out of a great sense of pain, sorrow & loss. Also too, compassion, love & understanding of others. Our most destructive experiences have come from an intense sense of prejudice, ignorance & hatred, or a perceived injustice.

Between these extremes is where the game of life is played out. Those that are passionately for, those that are passionately against…..something.

From these passionate extremes comes the most impressive expressions of art, literature & beauty. Nothing comes from what could be considered the middle ground of the life experience but the mundane & the ordinary. That which is forgettable, that which is forgotten.

To the average personal experience, this is our life’s story. Within this life’s story we still feel pleasure & pain, joy & sorrow, the ups & downs of everyday life. We are able to say however, this is my life, this is my pain, this is my joy, this is my sorrow, this is who I am. These things define who we are.

Within this ordinary experience of me, I can express within my limits, my passion for art, for literature, to create, to write, to feel….something.

There are two posts contributed by me, the first called “No One…To Blame”, the second, in response to what someone else had written, in response to the first “A True Reality of Consciousness”. Each one of these pieces came out of a deep sense of sadness.

When the idea of the first piece came to me to write something that was profoundly sad, I wrapped myself in the cloak of my perception of humanities life experience. I wrapped myself in the cloak of my perception of my life experience.

Out of this came something deeply personal, deeply sad, deeply expressive, deeply moving. I actually cried while writing those pieces. They are works of art, perhaps not to you, but I was able to produce, express, something, that to me was special, because I was able to feel…….something.

I wrote a poem & posted it the next day called “Metaphors”, in appreciation for all of those that was touched & moved to comment based upon those previous two pieces. I was able to write that poem because I was able to again, feel………..something.

Not just any something however, something that I could identify with, something specific, that something was a sense of me.

“Awakening” or Leo Hartoung, the forum’s site administrator, as always is the case, through no fault of his own eloquently responded to both posts. One response that was particular poignant spoke about “the mask of Vishnu, the preserver of the universe, a multiple mask which illustrates the fact that the one who looks out of my eyes and out of everyone's eyes is the same center.”

With that being said, herein lies the danger of the philosophy of Non Duality.

Non Duality removes any specific emotion from anyone in specific, removes the you from the equation. It changes I feel happy or sad, to simply....happiness, sadness......no concern!

Non Duality take thoughts that you think are yours & turn them into, just thoughts. Non Duality takes you & turn you into an illusion along with the goings & comings of the rest of the world.

Non Duality changes everything into something very insignificant, very meaningless, very ordinary. Non Duality removes the extremes from which the greatest expressions, achievements, & brilliance of this experience comes from & moves everything from the extremes to the center & it, then becomes the very mundane.

Sure, Non Duality recognizes great beauty, but the insignificance that it applies to it’s polar opposite mutes the colors & expression of that great beauty.

I’m sorry that I’ve come to these conclusions. The beginning of this journey was pleasurable, it did remove some of the intense pain of the experience of others.... from my experience.

As I have traveled deeper into the mysteries that this philosophy reveals, it has now sterilized this life experience, removed it's depth & texture, made....it....me....shallow, de-personalized, de-humanized, de-realized & now everything is just......‘THIS’......consciousness.

It has taken the intended conscious experience of consciousness itself, turned it upside down & around, points it back in the direction from which it came, & shows you your true essence.

That essence is nothing……cold, emotionless, uncaring, unfeeling, dark, lonely, alone…..nothing. The very things consciousness seems to be trying to escape in the first place, by dreaming up this dream world of illusion, & the illusion of you & I.

This is…….. "A Pandora’s Box"!


OPEN!.......AT YOUR OWN RISKS!

These conclusions, now back in Non Dualistic terminology, are not mine, there is no longer & never was a me to own them, they are simply......conclusions.....expressed by no one.

Peace!


Last edited by cimages on Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:40 pm; edited 12 times in total
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: WARNING!...."Pandora's Box"! Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
This is a warning to all of those that are considering making the journey down the road of Non-Duality/Advaita. Put this warning in perspective, this is simply my view, my experience. Once those initial steps are taken, the loss could be tremendous. It could mean the loss of you, the loss of your life, as you know it.

If you are not familiar with the term "Pandora's Box" use your search for it's meaning.

To my fellow forum members, I will be using regular expressions here to enhance the understanding of those readers that would not understand otherwise. This piece is not an attack on anyone & not meant to offend. If anyone is offended by what is being expressed, please accept my most humblest apologies. I consider myself one of you, I consider you, friends. Your assistance in this experience has been tremendous & I thank you for your caring & loving instructions, please think no less of me for what is about to be expressed.

Non Duality/Advaita............."A Pandora's Box"!

Approximately 20 years ago a young woman was kidnapped from a popular night spot that I frequented. She was brutally raped, beaten & murdered. Why is this story significant? It’s because this was the first time that I experienced something that I called transference.

I closed my eyes & I transferred myself into that young woman’s final moments on this earth. It was horrific, I will not describe to you, what to me, those final moments where like. But I asked myself, what could this young woman, all of 17 years of age, could have possibly done to deserve this. What sin could she have committed that God would allow this to happen. This was not right, this was not just, this was not fair.

Thusly began my journey away from thinking of this world, God, the life experience in the traditional sense & down the road of Non Duality.

Emotions are what applies depth & texture to the experience of life. Similar to colors applying depth & texture to what we see. Taste & flavors to what we consume. We are able to apply meaning & derive passion, based upon how this information is processed & absorbed. How we perceive these experiences give ourselves depth & texture, defines who we are.

Some of mankind’s greatest achievements have come out of a great sense of pain, sorrow & loss. Also too, compassion, love & understanding of others. Our most destructive experiences have come from an intense sense of prejudice, ignorance & hatred, or a perceived injustice.

Between these extremes is where the game of life is played out. Those that are passionately for, those that are passionately against…..something.

From these passionate extremes comes the most impressive expressions of art, literature & beauty. Nothing comes from what could be considered the middle ground of the life experience but the mundane & the ordinary. That which is forgettable, that which is forgotten.

To the average personal experience, this is our life’s story. Within this life’s story we still feel pleasure & pain, joy & sorrow, the ups & downs of everyday life. We are able to say however, this is my life, this is my pain, this is my joy, this is my sorrow, this is who I am. These things define who we are.

Within this ordinary experience of me, I can express within my limits, my passion for art, for literature, to create, to write, to feel….something.

There are two posts contributed by me, the first called “No One…To Blame”, the second, in response to what someone else had written, in response to the first “A True Reality of Consciousness”. Each one of these pieces came out of a deep sense of sadness.

When the idea of the first piece came to me to write something that was profoundly sad, I wrapped myself in the cloak of my perception of humanities life experience. I wrapped myself in the cloak of my perception of my life experience.

Out of this came something deeply personal, deeply sad, deeply expressive, deeply moving. I actually cried while writing those pieces. They are works of art, perhaps not to you, but I was able to produce, express, something, that to me was special, because I was able to feel…….something.

I wrote a poem & posted it the next day called “Metaphors”, in appreciation for all of those that was touched & moved to comment based upon those previous two pieces. I was able to write that poem because I was able to again, feel………..something.

Not just any something however, something that I could identify with, something specific, that something was a sense of me.

“Awakening” or Leo Hartoung, the forum’s site administrator, as always is the case, through no fault of his own eloquently responded to both posts. One response that was particular poignant spoke about “the mask of Vishnu, the preserver of the universe, a multiple mask which illustrates the fact that the one who looks out of my eyes and out of everyone's eyes is the same center.”

With that being said, herein lies the danger of the philosophy of Non Duality.

Non Duality removes any specific emotion from anyone in specific, removes the you from the equation. It changes I feel happy or sad, to there are feelings of happiness, sadness, no concern.

Non Duality take thoughts that you think are yours & turn them into, just thoughts. Non Duality takes you & turn you into an illusion along with the goings & comings of the rest of the world.

Non Duality changes everything into something very insignificant, very meaningless, very ordinary. Non Duality removes the extremes from which the greatest expressions, achievements, & brilliance of this experience comes from & moves everything from the extremes to the center & it then becomes the very mundane.

Sure, Non Duality recognizes great beauty, but the insignificance that it applies to it’s polar opposite mutes the colors & expression of that great beauty.

I’m sorry that I’ve come to these conclusions. The beginning of this journey was pleasurable, it did remove some of the intense pain of the experience of others.... from my experience.

As I have traveled deeper into the mysteries that this philosophy reveals, it has now sterilized this life experience, removed it's depth & texture, made....it....me....shallow, de-personalized, de-humanized, de-realized & now everything is just......‘THIS’......consciousness.

It has taken the intended conscious experience of consciousness itself, turned it upside down & around, points it back in the direction from which it came, & shows you your true essence.

That essence is nothing……cold, emotionless, uncaring, unfeeling, dark, lonely, alone…..nothing. The very things consciousness seems to be trying to escape in the first place, by dreaming up this dreamworld of illusion & the illusion of you & I. This is…….. "A Pandora’s Box"!

OPEN!.......AT YOUR OWN RISKS!

I hope I’m not banned from this forum, I hope I’m continued to be taken seriously. These conclusions, now back in Non Dualistic terminology, are not mine, they are simply......conclusions.....expressed by no one.

Peace!




From the perspective of the dying identified entity....'it' is like living in a morgue.

................The smallest of steps.......places 'you' in the very center of a scintillating mystery....that is indescribably wonderous.


toombaru
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject: Re: WARNING!...."Pandora's Box"! Reply with quote

mel wrote:
how can You lose
something that
never existed
in the Creation?


How can you lose a dream? Cool

mel wrote:
dont talk to strangers. Shocked


Never!

Love
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mel wrote:
thinking Shocked (bad idea Wink )..........


It appears that thought thinks so Wink Wink

What foolishness: the thought that "I do not know what he knows".

Greater still: the thought that "I know 'this', that he knows not". Shocked

How foolish to think that anyone is fooled by these foolish thoughts. Rolling Eyes

And yet again: the thought that anyone is thereby fooled... is just a foolish thought. Cool

What foolishness! Mad

What foolishness? Very Happy

mel wrote:
...compassion is automatic.
Rolling Eyes


Compassion?... understanding of another’s suffering?... feeling for another’s suffering?... awareness of another’s suffering ?... desire to do something about another’s suffering?

...‘the appearance of spontaneous action in response to apparent suffering’?

... Love?...

Love
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fox



Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 821
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That essence is nothing……cold, emotionless, uncaring, unfeeling, dark, lonely, alone…..nothing.


sorry guys, but according to my illusory reality-tunnel that sounds horrible!

and it is exactly what I experienced in my recent journey into my innerspace with the holy sacrament the mushroom.

I had the near ultimate horror-trip: There was not only ego-death approaching, but the death of the whole universe, including you and me, all the lovely ladies I still not know, this website, the internet and all the wonderful classical music, and goa-trance and just EVERYTHING!

It felt like after the great death there won't be ANYTHING anymore!

Just NOTHING.

The metaphysical horror was indescribable...I couldn't let go...dive in the abyss...so the horrible feeling is still with me...
Shocked Sad



But the urge is there: Death will come anyway, why not now!


The FEAR seems to make it impossible!
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox wrote:
Quote:
That essence is nothing……cold, emotionless, uncaring, unfeeling, dark, lonely, alone…..nothing.


sorry guys, but according to my illusory reality-tunnel that sounds horrible!

and it is exactly what I experienced in my recent journey into my innerspace with the holy sacrament the mushroom.

I had the near ultimate horror-trip: There was not only ego-death approaching, but the death of the whole universe, including you and me, all the lovely ladies I still not know, this website, the internet and all the wonderful classical music, and goa-trance and just EVERYTHING!

It felt like after the great death there won't be ANYTHING anymore!

Just NOTHING.

The metaphysical horror was indescribable...I couldn't let go...dive in the abyss...so the horrible feeling is still with me...
:shock: :(



But the urge is there: Death will come anyway, why not now!


The FEAR seems to make it impossible!





It is fear alone that creates it....and fear that keeps it moving.


toombaru
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1065
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: WARNING!...."A Pandora's Box"! Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
Non Duality removes any specific emotion from anyone in specific, removes the you from the equation. It changes I feel happy or sad, to simply....happiness, sadness......no concern!

Well, this seems true, (especially when the Cardinals went to the World Series in 2004. It was a very strange thing not to care about that. Neutral Confused Surprised )

cimages wrote:
That essence is nothing……cold, emotionless, uncaring, unfeeling, dark, lonely, alone…..nothing.

But this doesn't seem true. When it comes to looking around at others in the world from the ND perspective, it's still warm, emotional, caring, sadness, feeling, light, joyful. And there is no such thing as aloneness. Everything is "nothing" while still being "something." A paradox? I said this before (in a post that is now "confetti" Surprised )... it seems awakening is really not the same for everyone? Or maybe it all depends on the type of dream/nightmare one has been having? Confused

Love
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi dear maple3... confetti eh! Very Happy

maple3 modified Very Happy wrote:
...it seems awakening is really not the same for everyone... it all depends on the type of dream/nightmare one (is) having


The reality is neither awake nor asleep, dreaming nor not dreaming, but is afterall 'indescribable'.

As a finger pointing, the best words to describe the 'seeing through appearances' are 'leo's': 'Awakening to the Dream'... not Awakening from the Dream.

It just means 'seeing it for what it is' (like waking in a lucid dream and realising it is a dream), not just 'intellectually', 'but 'experientially'.

There is still 'experience', but 'that which is experiencing' cannot locate, describe, or separate 'itself' from the 'whole experience'. One can no longer say 'I', as opposed to 'all' or 'other' in any meaningful sense.

The apparent world is still seen from the perspective of michael and the life of michael is still lived as a 'normal bloke'. Only if there is an attempt to locate this 'michael' is it apparent that there is no 'me' here separate from 'all'.

No one can experience the 'inexperienceable'. It is impossible to experience 'nothing as nothing'... not as 'cold' or 'unfeeling' or 'lonely' or any other 'negative' (or positive) feeling or idea. All these are 'experiences' and though not separate from that which experiences, they are not it.

It is said that One's true nature is revealed in 'Deep Sleep' when there are no colours, sounds, tastes, smells, feelings or ideas in awareness. This state cannot be remembered. For 'in' it, there is nothing to be remembered... perhaps 'Bliss' is the word that best points to it. Though this would seem to imply that there is a difference between one 'state' and 'another'... when the reality is unchanging. Confused That which does not change cannot have 'two states'.

Who (apart from mel Very Happy ) hates/fears 'deep sleep'?

The fear of 'the nothing' is simply the sensation of fear combined with an idea of nothing being 'cold', 'lonely', 'unfeeling'...

Reality is nothing like the idea. Nothing to fear at all.

This 'nothing' is 'all'... eternally.

It is Life itself... the Living One.

The creature cries: praise be to God in the Highest!

Well, now that's explained, I'm going to have a cup of tea Very Happy

Love
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
Hi dear maple3
Hiya, dear michael Very Happy

michael wrote:
... confetti eh! Very Happy

Um, yeah... specifically, that "cyber" type of confetti. Anyway, that's what Leo said. I guess I've still got "confetti" on the brain. Wink

michael wrote:
maple3 modified Very Happy wrote:
...it seems awakening is really not the same for everyone... it all depends on the type of dream/nightmare one (is) having

Hmm... yeah, I do see your "point." Very Happy
But also, the ongoing dream/nightmare undeniably does seem a bit different, while also remaining the same, ya know?
So... let's see... what if we say, "it all depends on the type of dream/nightmare one is/was having"?

Hmm ... "is/was" ... see, it's just that kind of logical yet paradoxical language that makes me wonder how the heck I ended up in this non-dual crowd. Of course even in that sense, or even in ANY sense, "here" is where I always is/was anyway. Laughing

michael wrote:
No one can experience the 'inexperienceable'. It is impossible to experience 'nothing as nothing'... not as 'cold' or 'unfeeling' or 'lonely' or any other 'negative' (or positive) feeling or idea. All these are 'experiences' and though not separate from that which experiences, they are not it.

It is said that One's true nature is revealed in 'Deep Sleep' when there are no colours, sounds, tastes, smells, feelings or ideas in awareness. This state cannot be remembered. For 'in' it, there is nothing to be remembered... perhaps 'Bliss' is the word that best points to it.

And it's writing like this that makes me think of that silly salt doll in the metaphor. The salt doll trods purposefully down the beach, goes for a swim, fully expecting to measure the depth of the ocean. Can it measure and record it? Report it to itself, or others? And then I get the giggles at the thought of the tape measure bobbing in the waves, salt doll nowhere to be found. Laughing Bliss? What is bliss? Fear? What is fear? Laughing

michael wrote:
Though this would seem to imply that there is a difference between one 'state' and 'another'... when the reality is unchanging. Confused That which does not change cannot have 'two states'.

Yes, understood. So "is/was" is ONE state, isn't it?

michael wrote:
Reality is nothing like the idea. Nothing to fear at all.

Simple, profound words, yes...
Reality is nothing like the idea.
And ideas have nothing at all to do with Reality.

Very Happy

Love
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:

The reality is neither awake nor asleep, dreaming nor not dreaming, but is afterall 'indescribable'.

It just means 'seeing it for what it is' (like waking in a lucid dream and realising it is a dream), not just 'intellectually', 'but 'experientially'.

There is still 'experience', but 'that which is experiencing' cannot locate, describe, or separate 'itself' from the 'whole experience'. One can no longer say 'I', as opposed to 'all' or 'other' in any meaningful sense.

No one can experience the 'inexperienceable'. It is impossible to experience 'nothing as nothing'... not as 'cold' or 'unfeeling' or 'lonely' or any other 'negative' (or positive) feeling or idea. All these are 'experiences' and though not separate from that which experiences, they are not it.

It is said that One's true nature is revealed in 'Deep Sleep' when there are no colours, sounds, tastes, smells, feelings or ideas in awareness. This state cannot be remembered. For 'in' it, there is nothing to be remembered... perhaps 'Bliss' is the word that best points to it. Though this would seem to imply that there is a difference between one 'state' and 'another'... when the reality is unchanging. Confused That which does not change cannot have 'two states'.
Love


This quote is without doubt.......without error! A Mind Blower!....if there was a mind to blow

The exprience is the dream!

I posted "CONTRADICTIONS! Pandora's Box!" Prior to reading this.....same expressions.....same consciousness.......It's still.....static!

I'm the contradiction of that which is me!.... Static

Peace!.... Static!
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
Hi dear maple3... confetti eh! Very Happy

maple3 modified Very Happy wrote:
...it seems awakening is really not the same for everyone... it all depends on the type of dream/nightmare one (is) having


The reality is neither awake nor asleep, dreaming nor not dreaming, but is afterall 'indescribable'.

As a finger pointing, the best words to describe the 'seeing through appearances' are 'leo's': 'Awakening to the Dream'... not Awakening from the Dream.

It just means 'seeing it for what it is' (like waking in a lucid dream and realising it is a dream), not just 'intellectually', 'but 'experientially'.

There is still 'experience', but 'that which is experiencing' cannot locate, describe, or separate 'itself' from the 'whole experience'. One can no longer say 'I', as opposed to 'all' or 'other' in any meaningful sense.

The apparent world is still seen from the perspective of michael and the life of michael is still lived as a 'normal bloke'. Only if there is an attempt to locate this 'michael' is it apparent that there is no 'me' here separate from 'all'.

No one can experience the 'inexperienceable'. It is impossible to experience 'nothing as nothing'... not as 'cold' or 'unfeeling' or 'lonely' or any other 'negative' (or positive) feeling or idea. All these are 'experiences' and though not separate from that which experiences, they are not it.

It is said that One's true nature is revealed in 'Deep Sleep' when there are no colours, sounds, tastes, smells, feelings or ideas in awareness. This state cannot be remembered. For 'in' it, there is nothing to be remembered... perhaps 'Bliss' is the word that best points to it. Though this would seem to imply that there is a difference between one 'state' and 'another'... when the reality is unchanging. Confused That which does not change cannot have 'two states'.

Who (apart from mel Very Happy ) hates/fears 'deep sleep'?

The fear of 'the nothing' is simply the sensation of fear combined with an idea of nothing being 'cold', 'lonely', 'unfeeling'...

Reality is nothing like the idea. Nothing to fear at all.

This 'nothing' is 'all'... eternally.

It is Life itself... the Living One.

The creature cries: praise be to God in the Highest!

Well, now that's explained, I'm going to have a cup of tea Very Happy

Love


This quote is nothing short of........ BRILLIANT! .........There is simply no other way to express it!

'THIS'....Is called... stepping up to the plate....when something is strongly challenged!

'THIS'..... is called!.......REPRESENTING!

'THIS'....is called!....TAKING NO PRISONERS!

'THIS'........is called.... Being right on point!

'THIS'........IS NOT STATIC.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BRILLIANT!.......... WITHOUT DOUBT.........WITHOUT ERROR!

WHAT ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID?

Shocked
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