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Objectivity
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makara



Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 1341
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: Objectivity Reply with quote

" Objectivity is a subject' s delusion that observing can be done without him/her. Invoking objectivity is abrogating responsibility hence its popularity."
Heinz Foerster

Go Heinz!
But did they listen?
Of course not.
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Kailashana



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for this, M.

It's balm for the nondual sickness that so often permeates these lists. It's so easy to catch, but more difficult to let go.

~A
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dilaram
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Objectivity Reply with quote

makara wrote:
" Objectivity is a subject' s delusion that observing can be done without him/her. Invoking objectivity is abrogating responsibility hence its popularity."
Heinz Foerster

Go Heinz!
But did they listen?
Of course not.


Kailashana wrote:
Thank you for this, M.

It's balm for the nondual sickness that so often permeates these lists. It's so easy to catch, but more difficult to let go.

~A


Objectifying the 'Non-objectifiable Subject' is the apparent 'sickness/dis-ease/problem' 'The One Subject' projects in Itself.

Responsibility, irresponsibility, arrogance, restlessness are symptoms of this so-called 'sickness'.

Sickness is always 'dual', because it cannot exist without its opposite: 'health'.

And 'duality' is a phenomenon in which everything depends on its opposite.

'Nonduality' is a dual concept which doesn't point at 'a phenomenon'.

It points at 'the Non-conceptual'.


Last edited by dilaram on Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kailashana



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no such thing as homeostasis. It is against nature...intrinsic of growth and decay. Of ascending and descending one's train of thoughts.

~A
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makara



Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 1341
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Objectifying the 'Non-objectifiable Subject' is the apparent 'sickness/dis-ease/problem'


What did you imagine H.Foerster is saying?
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dilaram
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

makara wrote:
Quote:
Objectifying the 'Non-objectifiable Subject' is the apparent 'sickness/dis-ease/problem'


What did you imagine H.Foerster is saying?


Do you think he meant the same? Okay.

Smile
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dilaram
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Objectivity Reply with quote

makara wrote:
" Objectivity is a subject' s delusion that observing can be done without him/her. Invoking objectivity is abrogating responsibility hence its popularity."
Heinz Foerster

Go Heinz!
But did they listen?
Of course not.


If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all. ~Jacob Hornberger
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Kailashana



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was unfamiliar with Hornberger, Dilaram. I liked your signature line quote and googled him. My partner knew he was a Libertarian before I found this site. no gofff.org/aboutUs/press/fc.asp after googling the books he authored.

We then had a lengthy discussion, an ongoing discussion into the nature of spirituality, non/dualism (he, however, is a Christian) and politics.
Ayn Rand seems to have catapulted him as much as his heritage and the community in which he was reared. True for all of us.

Suffice it to say, we are all products of our environment AND our nurturing, our beLIEf systems and our ability to remain open-minded and open-hearted.

What I am certain of is that no political party has ALL the answers, just as all religions have a seed of truth as long as love and compassion are espoused and not rote ritual and/or dogma at the expense of our *humanity* and *freedom* to overpower another.

We live in *interesting* times and smile at this thought.


~A
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dilaram
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kailashana wrote:
I was unfamiliar with Hornberger, Dilaram. I liked your signature line quote and googled him. My partner knew he was a Libertarian before I found this site. no gofff.org/aboutUs/press/fc.asp after googling the books he authored.

We then had a lengthy discussion, an ongoing discussion into the nature of spirituality, non/dualism (he, however, is a Christian) and politics.
Ayn Rand seems to have catapulted him as much as his heritage and the community in which he was reared. True for all of us.

Suffice it to say, we are all products of our environment AND our nurturing, our beLIEf systems and our ability to remain open-minded and open-hearted.

What I am certain of is that no political party has ALL the answers, just as all religions have a seed of truth as long as love and compassion are espoused and not rote ritual and/or dogma at the expense of our *humanity* and *freedom* to overpower another.

We live in *interesting* times and smile at this thought.


~A


Everything I write is just a pointer to that which you are.
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Kailashana



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this imply: that which I am is nothing but your pointer?

Laughing
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dilaram
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kailashana wrote:
Does this imply: that which I am is nothing but your pointer?

Laughing


Every thought you have about yourself or the world is a pointer to yourself.
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Xmac



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 200
Location: Boston area, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kailashana wrote:
There is no such thing as homeostasis. It is against nature...intrinsic of growth and decay. Of ascending and descending one's train of thoughts.

~A


Growth and decay create a balance or equilibrium of nature. Systems that seem out of balance are not, because there are no closed systems.
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Blossom



Joined: 16 Apr 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Ojai, California

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Me too, I will go see this website you mention---for me, I believe these days we are in are the 'destined' times where we begin to uncover the lies pertaining to the false authority of human governments and controlling-fear based religions (Popes, Muslim mullahs, and all the rest of that horror show) --

We are each and everyone of us going to find where The Real Authority Is---It is Within Us--- We are each beginning to see that the Authentic Authority is not "out there" in any "other" man or group or "ism" or ideolgoy others would foist on others---

It is time to Find Our Self Here Within Us--- Others cannot impose freedom on others, not any group can make another free---Freedom is OUR Inherent Light Already Being Who we are---We Claim It and LIve and then watch what happens (which is what is happening, so trust yourself and keep Living The Truth of Who you ARE)

Many years ago I read Atlas Shrugged, its message still rings honest, clear and true for me too--- For me the Libertarian party is closer to the Truth, but it is still an organized belief system. We need to find our Inner Light within Us and then Live IT---That LIght is The redeemer, the Real Messiah within Us, The Child, The Christ Consciousness that abides within us all---That One is Freedom Itself and beholden to no one, bows to no man who puts themselves up as authority over another.

We find That Original Selfhood and then we See The Real Liberation and Freedom that must eventually come.

Do not be duped by socialism and communism ---oh, me, I think socialism is the devils work---And I'd explain the devil as the 'human ego' that thinks it knows anything and usually knows what is best for you and me, promoting guilt and judgmentalism in the name of a sick form of 'equaility' ---

Who we are is Real and IT is This Awareness Which Belongs not to ''man' but to Godhead All---So far, we take our orders from those who perpetuate the lie; that we are separate from the very Light that is Being Us.

When you and I begin to Live The Infinite Mind, Godhead, The Isness of All Being All That I Am (you are, we are)--Then "out there" will begin to Reflect What is Within Us---It is beginning to happen---The Already Is will be Seen.

The following from someone who had honest insight that could see the future (saying to me, "its because all time, past and future, is included in Here and Now" :

"-----People are individually willing to adjust, as their intuitions and feelings come into focus, but the controlling groups to which they belong, are vigorously holding to the old ways, refusing to listen to the New Sounds within. Either the institutions of mankind adjust to allow men to change mental course, or there will be a sociological anguish unparalleled in human history." (William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A "Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics")
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Blossom



Joined: 16 Apr 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Ojai, California

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subjectivism = Non-dual (Within One Mind)

"Present civilization and its organizations (religious, philosophical, educational, scientific, financial) are like the great bend in the river of life just before the shallows ahead-just before the unsuspected turbulence of subjectivism when life roars through the narrow passages. Historic education-religious education in particular-has paid little attention to its prophets. It has deemed subjectivism too unsettling and difficult to teach. Our temptation is to hang on to the old ways where few demands are made and the familiar pacifies us. But the River of Life is moving relentlessly in growing, ongoing information, and the River of Life includes the rapids of metaphysical subjectivism whether churchdom and science want to examine it and tell of it or not. As content as we might be in our religious views-or in avoiding spiritual matters altogether as so many do-the end of the quiet time looms for everyone. We are approaching a New View of things. The world is already caught in the swift flow of quantum information leading to new knowledge and strange, startling vistas.

For the new perspectives being thrust upon us, neither the objective studies of religion nor the subjective studies of metaphysics, as they are presented today, will be adequate. The tumult we are already facing insists that mankind, if he is to survive, begin to think in a new way. Humanity, with its physical sciences leading, is soon to confirm the insubstantial nature of matter and time. " (William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A "Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics")
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dilaram
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blossom wrote:
Subjectivism = Non-dual (Within One Mind)

"Present civilization and its organizations (religious, philosophical, educational, scientific, financial) are like the great bend in the river of life just before the shallows ahead-just before the unsuspected turbulence of subjectivism when life roars through the narrow passages. Historic education-religious education in particular-has paid little attention to its prophets. It has deemed subjectivism too unsettling and difficult to teach. Our temptation is to hang on to the old ways where few demands are made and the familiar pacifies us. But the River of Life is moving relentlessly in growing, ongoing information, and the River of Life includes the rapids of metaphysical subjectivism whether churchdom and science want to examine it and tell of it or not. As content as we might be in our religious views-or in avoiding spiritual matters altogether as so many do-the end of the quiet time looms for everyone. We are approaching a New View of things. The world is already caught in the swift flow of quantum information leading to new knowledge and strange, startling vistas.

For the new perspectives being thrust upon us, neither the objective studies of religion nor the subjective studies of metaphysics, as they are presented today, will be adequate. The tumult we are already facing insists that mankind, if he is to survive, begin to think in a new way. Humanity, with its physical sciences leading, is soon to confirm the insubstantial nature of matter and time. " (William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A "Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics")


(Nothing = Non-dual) emerging as (something = dual)
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