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How do I know?
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Cristinja



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 2
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:20 pm    Post subject: How do I know? Reply with quote

"re-cognize the Single-Cognizing-Light in which all these temporal occurrences are lit up. IT shines prior to all such experiences and remains forever unseen as it is the very seeing. You Are THAT. "

This is copied from the article... and it is repeated in many ways in other writings. My question is if it is unseen how do you know it shines or I am That? What does re-cognize mean above. I have a library of over a hundred nonduality books and been seeking since about 1955 off and on and I still dont get it! and time is running out.
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: How do I know? Reply with quote

Cristinja wrote:
"re-cognize the Single-Cognizing-Light in which all these temporal occurrences are lit up. IT shines prior to all such experiences and remains forever unseen as it is the very seeing. You Are THAT. "

This is copied from the article... and it is repeated in many ways in other writings. My question is if it is unseen how do you know it shines or I am That? What does re-cognize mean above. I have a library of over a hundred nonduality books and been seeking since about 1955 off and on and I still dont get it! and time is running out.




You are searching for stars........with a microscope.



toombaru
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awakening
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Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: How do I know? Reply with quote

Cristinja wrote:
"re-cognize the Single-Cognizing-Light in which all these temporal occurrences are lit up. IT shines prior to all such experiences and remains forever unseen as it is the very seeing. You Are THAT. "

This is copied from the article... and it is repeated in many ways in other writings. My question is if it is unseen how do you know it shines or I am That? What does re-cognize mean above. I have a library of over a hundred nonduality books and been seeking since about 1955 off and on and I still dont get it! and time is running out.


Hi Cristina

How do we know about invisible sight? Is it not that all things seen testify to the existence of sight?

In the same way all things known testify to the unknowable knowing.

How do you know that you are? Simple, there is being there is knowing. There is this indefinable, yet undeniable presence.

It is not a matter of a riddle that has to be solved conceptually. Relax. The mind cannot grasp that what knows the mind.

It is not something to get and there is no one to get it. Simple clear and open Awareness in which everything arises spontaneously. Here is presence, here is awareness, here is being without someone doing the being. It is the Isness that is.
...
..
.
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mel
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do You want to know?

Knowing is the self, all misery.

Knowing maintains the
sense of self...the non-existant.

Of course, You know how
to make toast, fix a car, whatever..........

Be simple in Your expression.

Complexity, high sounding words
are useless.
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1065
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:28 am    Post subject: Re: How do I know? Reply with quote

Cristinja wrote:
I have a library of over a hundred nonduality books and been seeking since about 1955 off and on and I still dont get it! and time is running out.

Hello Cristinja.
Wow, I'd sure like to raid your bookshelves. Wink Smile

But seriously, I do sense your frustration. And I don't know if I can really say anything that will help, but when I read "and time is running out," I found myself wanting to try to address that.

From the non-dual perspective, a concern for time becomes irrelevant because the personal self that is worried about time is seen to be irrelevant, like a mirage. In a sense, the personal self and time depend on each other for their mutual existence. Or said another way, the personal self created this thing called "time" so it could have a point of reference to make sense of its existence, and its other creations. When the personal self is seen to be a fantasy, a mirage, then all the things concerning it are also fantasies, including all of its creatiions, including the existence of time. And so the statement, "and time is running out" becomes especially irrelevant in regard to non-duality.

Of course time is still VERY relevant to this personal self that still continues to use it as a type of tool. After all, seeing that the mirage isn't real doesn't make it automatically disappear. But it's no longer taken to be anything real... just an image... just a tool...


Hope this helps. Smile

Love
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: How do I know? Reply with quote

maple3 wrote:
Cristinja wrote:
I have a library of over a hundred nonduality books and been seeking since about 1955 off and on and I still dont get it! and time is running out.

Hello Cristinja.
Wow, I'd sure like to raid your bookshelves. Wink Smile

But seriously, I do sense your frustration. And I don't know if I can really say anything that will help, but when I read "and time is running out," I found myself wanting to try to address that.

From the non-dual perspective, a concern for time becomes irrelevant because the personal self that is worried about time is seen to be irrelevant, like a mirage. In a sense, the personal self and time depend on each other for their mutual existence. Or said another way, the personal self created this thing called "time" so it could have a point of reference to make sense of its existence, and its other creations. When the personal self is seen to be a fantasy, a mirage, then all the things concerning it are also fantasies, including all of its creatiions, including the existence of time. And so the statement, "and time is running out" becomes especially irrelevant in regard to non-duality.

Of course time is still VERY relevant to this personal self that still continues to use it as a type of tool. After all, seeing that the mirage isn't real doesn't make it automatically disappear. But it's no longer taken to be anything real... just an image... just a tool...

Hope this helps. Smile

Love


WOW!!!!! GET DOWN Maple3!!!!!!!
THAT! IS AN AWESOME EXPLANATION! Shocked

Peace! Cool
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maple3



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 1065
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: How do I know? Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
WOW!!!!! GET DOWN Maple3!!!!!!!
THAT! IS AN AWESOME EXPLANATION! Shocked

Ah, cimages, it's deja vu, all over again... Very Happy
You made a big fuss over something I wrote before. Embarassed
So nice to see you again too!
Another good friend... another big grin. Very Happy

Love
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a thought.

cimages wrote:
What defines a ‘thing’? Other than a thought of that thing itself!


Hmmm

Any 'person' (including 'me'... every 'me' Very Happy) is a 'thing' - an 'object'.

Whereas 'I' am the ultimate subject... though I cannot say who or what or when or where or why or how I am. Only 'that I am'. And even this 'thatness' is indefinable... except to say it is this very seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling and knowing.

Things are seen to be 'composites'. They are seen to be 'composed' of the sensations experienced (eg, the feelings and sounds and colours, etc) related to the 'thing', combined with the 'concept' of 'what the thing is'.

In the absence of the 'concept', there are just sensations - fleeting, ever changing - that are themselves meaningless.

What is meant by the word 'concept'?

There are two apparent 'levels' of meaning.

Firstly, when a thought arises: "I see him", the 'him' appears as a separate person. However, all that is seen are colours in certain shapes that are named 'him'. There is no actual 'him', just colours associated with the idea - called 'him'. Or if there is the experience of touching 'him', there is only the feeling (of the touch) that is named 'touching him'. In both cases this 'idea of him' is a very vague notion.

Or when the thought arises "I feel sad", there is a certain feeling that is labelled 'sadness' and the idea that it is 'me that feels sad'. Again, this 'notion of me' is very vague. And again, in the absence of the thought, there is just a fleeting feeling... meaningless.

So to the second 'level' of the meaning of 'concept'... which you won't find in any dictionary.

Conception is so much more than these vague 'ideas', which are experienced as thoughts.

Conception is timeless. It does not exist in time, time is a concept within it. It has no beginning or end. It does not Change. Conception includes (it is) all meaning... all that can ever be known. It has no substance, no form.

Creation is the bringing together of sensations and conception ('moment to moment') to create this apparent play of life.

The person that I seem to be, and every other thing, exists 'conceptually'. 'What' each 'thing' 'is' at any 'time' is ever unchanging. (It cannot be other than it is, for then it would be a different thing, and not what it is now).

This 'concept' of the 'thing' (including 'me') is not merely the passing thought. It is the whole 'meaning' of the thing from 'energy fields' to 'atomic particles and processes' to biologic processes, up to and including the 'social mores' that govern behaviour. It includes the relation of the 'thing' to its 'environment' and to all other 'things'.

Compared to the vague notion of 'him' that defines the thought, the full conception of the person includes all atoms and chemical reactions, organs and the full life history of 'him', from birth to death and all of the 'processes' that led to the birth and that followed the death, all thoughts and feelings and interactions with the environment (air, sun etc), the food eaten, the people with whom he interacted (on whom 'he' 'impacted'), actions done and so on.

This 'him' is really inseparable from the whole of Conception.

The person, is the sum of all their interactions. For through their apparent being, so all other apparent things are irrevocably different to what they might otherwise be. Indeed the Conception includes all possibilities, including the possibility that 'he' never existed. This possibility is not true of this story (in which I see him), but is true for the story in which he does not exist. Confused Both possibilities are eternally present within Conception.

That "I see him" this moment does not make this possibility 'more real' than the possibility of 'me existing in a world in which he was never born' or in which we never met, or any other of the infinite possibilities.

It is like stories that have some similar characters but are not the same story. Indeed, there is no end to the stories that are conceived.

How vast is this concept of 'him' compared with the tiny fleeting thought of 'him' seen as a momentary patch of colours!

This description of 'conception' is not anything like the reality to which it points. The reality is not made up of discrete 'objects' or 'concepts'. It is wholly one and includes all possibilities.

Sensations alone create the impression of change. Sensations are like the changing light images on a computer screen.

Software that generates the images points to the nature of 'Conception'. As the software is forever frozen on the 'game disk', so the Conception is forever unchanging, one with Consciousness.

Unlike software, Conception is not simply the 'code' or 'instructions' for constructing the images. It is the full 'meaning' of the thing in every sense, on every 'level' from every 'perspective'. Whatever can be thought about a thing or a circumstance is a part of the concept of it.

Just as a computer game seems to proceed from one event to another on the screen (as light patterns are generated), so 'Life' seems to change as sensations arise in concord with 'specific' concepts that are all known within Consciousness. Though nothing actually 'arises'. It is only the sensations that appear and disappear moment to moment. Concepts are simply 'overlaid' to give them meaning.

Do not take 'my' word for it - look and see for oneself.

Hi toombaru... kimide Very Happy

Hi maple3 and rick and leo and cimages and everyone... so nice to be here. Very Happy Very Happy

Love
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mel
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your complex, high sounding language
is useless.

Be so direct that
they cant KNOW what You
are saying.
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Completely useless. Shocked

'They' can never know Very Happy

Love
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Cristinja



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 2
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simple questions:
1. Is there only one awareness that is me? ( hard for me to imagine being something so nebulus as awareness)
2. Can I be aware of anthing? Is this awarenes the same?
3.Can I be aware of this awareness ( even though its what I am and how can you know)
4. Im open and probably stupid looking with these questions-I need a primer.
5. Wheeler says "Recognize yourself to be that awareness out of which everything appears" How do I do that! your answers to the above I hope helps.
Innocently yours,
Cristinja
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cristinja wrote:
Simple questions:
1. Is there only one awareness that is me? ( hard for me to imagine being something so nebulus as awareness)
2. Can I be aware of anthing? Is this awarenes the same?
3.Can I be aware of this awareness ( even though its what I am and how can you know)
4. Im open and probably stupid looking with these questions-I need a primer.
5. Wheeler says "Recognize yourself to be that awareness out of which everything appears" How do I do that! your answers to the above I hope helps.
Innocently yours,
Cristinja





Helps who?





toombaru
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freefall



Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 39
Location: near chicago

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is a sort of turning inside out of perpective that happens. The meaning of "I" is what is turned inside out, like a t shirt or article of clothing. What if what we think of as "I" is really just a thought, appearing on awareness like any other thought that pops up out of nowhere.

It is that turning inside out that allows comments like Wheeler's to make any sense. The dichotomy "I'm over here, that's over here" seem obvious, but I think this teaching is about calling that obvious dichotomy into question.

However, "understanding" it in the sense of explaining it can be as important or unimportant as understanding any other piece of fact, like the correct pronunciation of a term in a foreign language or the phone number your friend had 5 years ago. As a fact or a piece of knowledge there is no more value to advaita teachings than any other teachings that might be in a university class or a book at the bookstore. Even if "you" understand all this stuff, who cares?

That reminds me; the "Who cares?" teaching story is a nice one if you run across it.
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
Here's a thought.

cimages wrote:
What defines a ‘thing’? Other than a thought of that thing itself!


Hmmm

Any 'person' (including 'me'... every 'me' Very Happy) is a 'thing' - an 'object'.

Whereas 'I' am the ultimate subject... though I cannot say who or what or when or where or why or how I am. Only 'that I am'. And even this 'thatness' is indefinable... except to say it is this very seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling and knowing.

Things are seen to be 'composites'. They are seen to be 'composed' of the sensations experienced (eg, the feelings and sounds and colours, etc) related to the 'thing', combined with the 'concept' of 'what the thing is'.



Firstly, when a thought arises: "I see him", the 'him' appears as a separate person. However, all that is seen are colours in certain shapes that are named 'him'. There is no actual 'him', just colours associated with the idea - called 'him'. Or if there is the experience of touching 'him', there is only the feeling (of the touch) that is named 'touching him'. In both cases this 'idea of him' is a very vague notion.

Or when the thought arises "I feel sad", there is a certain feeling that is labelled 'sadness' and the idea that it is 'me that feels sad'. Again, this 'notion of me' is very vague. And again, in the absence of the thought, there is just a fleeting feeling... meaningless.

Love


No eyes to see, no 'thing' to be seen! The sensation of seeing is just another thought that is expressed by consciousness as too is the sensation itself.

This 'thought' of seeing is what applies ‘apparent’ meaning to the thought of the sensation to see.

There really are no colors, only a ‘thought’ of a ‘sensation’ of this or that color with the thought defining a color to be this or that.

There really are no feelings & none to feel, sadness is just a thought that defines the no-thing of ’being’…….sad.

There really are no smells, or odors, nothing to taste, nothing to experience but what defines these no- things is a 'thought' of a 'sensation' to smell, to taste! A 'thought' which is expressed as an experience to taste, to smell!

Thoughts themselves are nothing more then images, or a mirage, like ourselves that bubbles up from the vast deep well of consciousness, lingers for a while & then dissolve back into which they came leaving not a trace.

Peace! Cool
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cristinja wrote:
Simple questions:
1. Is there only one awareness that is me? ( hard for me to imagine being something so nebulus as awareness)
2. Can I be aware of anthing? Is this awarenes the same?
3.Can I be aware of this awareness ( even though its what I am and how can you know)
4. Im open and probably stupid looking with these questions-I need a primer.
5. Wheeler says "Recognize yourself to be that awareness out of which everything appears" How do I do that! your answers to the above I hope helps.
Innocently yours,
Cristinja


Hi Chritinja

I think Maple3 explained it beautifully. But there is nothing that 'you' can do to get to understanding.

This 'I' that is being referred to appears to be afraid to let go of the idea that it somehow has control of some-thing! This is the most difficult realization to experience is that effort does not translate directly into any particular desired outcome that enters what appears as your field of awareness or consciousness.

This 'you' that is struggling with these ideas is nothing but another idea itself. Since this 'you' is not self defining but is defined by consciousness & therefore have no substance beyond that which consciousness applies.

Thoughts, feelings, desires arise in what appears to be a focal point of 'you'. But 'you' have no control over any of these or any-thing because there is no you having these experiences.

It is consciousness having the experience of 'you' having these experiences.

Let yourself go, acknowledge, thoughts, feelings, doubts, desires as arising & dissipating. Acknowledge these thoughts, feelings, doubts, desires occurring in this focal point called 'you'.

Acknowledge when this focal point called 'you' first emerged from consciousness to be a focal point in consciousness, with what appeared to be individual wants & desires, the first time 'you' became conscious of 'being' 'you'.

'You' are not that which is doing the acknowledging, 'THAT' which is doing the acknowledging is YOU! Let the 'you' go & experience 'THAT' which is pure awareness or consciousness!

Thoughts will still arise, sadness will still happen, doubts will still occur, this 'you' still appears to be there but this 'you' will no longer feel or think that it's existence is based on the frustrating need to be in control of anything. And, these things arise & dissipate of their own accord including this 'thought' of 'you' wanting to be in control of some-thing!

Understanding happens not based upon this 'you' wanting or trying to understand!

Peace! Cool
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