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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following is something that I copied from the old web-site before it was struck by the hacker. I think perhaps this is a much better explanation then the one I just gave. I'm not sure who the author is other then consciousness.

The witnessing of awareness can persist through waking, dreaming and deep sleep. The Witness is fully available in any state, including your own present state of awareness right now. So I'm going to talk you into this state, or try to, using what are known in Buddhism as "pointing out instructions." I am not going to try to get you into a different state of consciousness, or an altered state of consciousness, or a non-ordinary state. I am going to simply point out something that is already occurring in your own present, ordinary, natural state.

So let's start by just being aware of the world around us. Look out there at the sky, and just relax your mind; let your mind and the sky mingle. Notice the clouds floating by. Notice that this takes no effort on your part. Your present awareness, in which these clouds are floating, is very simple, very easy, effortless, spontaneous. You simply notice that there is an effortless awareness of the clouds. The same is true of those trees, and those birds, and those rocks. You simply and effortlessly witness them.

Look now at the sensations in your own body. You can be aware of whatever bodily feelings are present-perhaps pressure where you are sitting, perhaps warmth in your tummy, maybe tightness in your neck. But even if these feelings are tight and tense, you can easily be aware of them. These feelings arise in your present awareness, and that awareness is very simple, easy, effortless, spontaneous. You simply and effortlessly witness them.

Look at the thoughts arising in your mind. You might notice various images, symbols, concepts, desires, hopes and fears, all spontaneously arising in your awareness. They arise, stay a bit, and pass. These thoughts and feelings arise in your present awareness, and that awareness is very simple, effortless, spontaneous. You simply and effortlessly witness them.

So notice: you can see the clouds float by because you are not those clouds-you are the witness of those clouds. You can feel bodily feelings because you are not those feelings-you are the witness of those feelings. You can see thoughts float by because you are not those thoughts-you are the witness of those thoughts. Spontaneously and naturally, these things all arise, on their own, in your present, effortless awareness.

So who are you? You are not objects out there, you are not feelings, you are not thoughts-you are effortlessly aware of all those, so you are not those. Who or what are you?

Say it this way to yourself: I have feelings, but I am not those feelings. Who am I? I have thoughts, but I am not those thoughts. Who am I? I have desires, but I am not those desires. Who am I?

So you push back into the source of your own awareness. You push back into the Witness, and you rest in the Witness. I am not objects, not feelings, not desires, not thoughts.

But then people usually make a big mistake. They think that if they rest in the Witness, they are going to see something or feel something-something really neat and special. But you won't see anything. If you see something, that is just another object-another feeling, another thought, another sensation, another image. But those are all objects; those are what you are not.

No, as you rest in the Witness-realizing, I am not objects, I am not feelings, I am not thoughts-all you will notice is a sense of freedom, a sense of liberation, a sense of release-release from the terrible constriction of identifying with these puny little finite objects, your little body and little mind and little ego, all of which are objects that can be seen, and thus are not the true Seer, the real Self, the pure Witness, which is what you really are.

So you won't see anything in particular. Whatever is arising is fine. Clouds float by in the sky, feelings float by in the body, thoughts float by in the mind-and you can effortlessly witness all of them. They all spontaneously arise in your own present, easy, effortless awareness. And this witnessing awareness is not itself anything specific you can see. It is just a vast, background sense of freedom-or pure emptiness-and in that pure emptiness, which you are, the entire manifest world arises. You are that freedom, openness, emptiness-and not any itty bitty thing that arises in it.

Resting in that empty, free, easy, effortless witnessing, notice that the clouds are arising in the vast space of your awareness. The clouds are arising within you-so much so, you can taste the clouds, you are one with the clouds. It is as if they are on this side of your skin, they are so close. The sky and your awareness have become one, and all things in the sky are floating effortlessly through your own awareness. You can kiss the sun, swallow the mountain, they are that close. Zen says "Swallow the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp," and that's the easiest thing in the world, when inside and outside are no longer two, when subject and object are nondual, when the looker and looked at are One Taste. You see?
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dave sirjue



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cristinja wrote:
Quote:
I have a library of over a hundred nonduality books and been seeking since about 1955 off and on and I still dont get it! and time is running out.


Since time is running out for you, here's the harsh blunt truth, the very crux of the matter. No beating round the bush!

Penetrate into your innermost core and see the reality of how things are. Look within-wards at the very core and you'd see that there is just pure Nothingness. That's why people don't look within-wards. Somewhere it is said that the 'Kingdom of God is within', 'Know Thyself', 'Be alight onto thyself', 'To thine own self be true'. The Upanishads go on shouting, 'Go Within! Withinwards is the Journey.' There is a tendency due to habit to disregard this advice and not bother with it. Even if someone listens, they listen with half ear -- listen one moment and forget next moment. Because deep down you know that to look withinwards is to look into Nothingness, Emptiness. There is Nothing. And that is scary, utterly frightening.

At the very Core there is Nothingness. The wheel of life moves on the axle of Nothingness. So, afraid of the inner Nothingness, we go on rushing into the world, avoiding the Void. The fear of one's own Non-Being takes you on a long, long journey. You go on rushing into this direction, into that. You have to rush, because if you don't rush you will stumble upon your Nothingness withIn you... and there is fear. You are frightened of that -- you don't want to see that you are Not.

One wants to keep it at the back, one wants to fill it. That's what people go on doing. Sansara, the world, is nothing but an effort to fill this Inner Void. Fill it with money, big houses, fancy cars, fill it with people, fill it with power, authority, fane, ambition... fill it with all sorts of dreams and fantasy. Go on throwing things into it -- so one day you can feel you are not just Nothing, you are Somebody, you are Something. But it never happens, it CANNOT happen. Because the Great Abyss is Bottomless -- you can go on throwing things into it, they go on disappearing.

Your core Being is non-Being: you are not ready to look into it, to accept it. You are Death-Living. Death is there, and at the very core of your Being there is just Emptiness -- what Buddha calls Anatta. There is no existent self, there is no inherent 'I'. And somehow everybody knows it -- hence few venture inwards, nearly everyone goes looking outwards. Outwards you can befool yourself, you can deceive yourself, your perceptions can be deceptive. You can create many games, you can play with those games -- they are not going to help, but still you can pass your time with those games. You can become so engrossed in them that for those engrossed moments you forget your inner Nothingness, you indulge in strategies of distraction from this dreaded moment. Even spiritual practises can be a distraction if it is not aligned with nothingness or death. The meditational techniques can become tranquillizers that drug you to sleep in order to perpetuate even more exciting dreams.

But this inner Nothingness is your very central Being. So you cannot escape from it, do whatsoever you want to do. Nobody has been able to escape from it. You can go on postponing, you can go on delaying that experience, but one day or other, that experience will catch up with you; you will have to go through it alone.

And that moment can be either a moment of great Blessing or great calamity depending on your standpoint. Really, when you know your inner Non-Being, you have returned home. When that experience, fearful or otherwise is over, all fear disappears. When you know you are Not, how can you be afraid -- of what? for what? And Who can be afraid?

When you are not, how can you become somebody, someone important?
You become nobody, nothing! You know nothing, there is nothing to know. Who can know anything about nothing ? What is there to know about nothing ? However this nothingness is not simply a vacuum, you become a Nothingness that embraces Everything, as it is. Events still occur, apperances arise, abide and cease. You have found the fountain of eternal youth. You cease to be limited to your surface personal identity.

Knowing one's non-Being as your center, your core, there is great rest, great peace, the peace that suppaseth understanding and knowledge.
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave sirjue wrote:
Cristinja wrote:
Quote:
I have a library of over a hundred nonduality books and been seeking since about 1955 off and on and I still dont get it! and time is running out.


Since time is running out for you, here's the harsh blunt truth, the very crux of the matter. No beating round the bush!

Penetrate into your innermost core and see the reality of how things are. Look within-wards at the very core and you'd see that there is just pure Nothingness. That's why people don't look within-wards. Somewhere it is said that the 'Kingdom of God is within', 'Know Thyself', 'Be alight onto thyself', 'To thine own self be true'. The Upanishads go on shouting, 'Go Within! Withinwards is the Journey.' There is a tendency due to habit to disregard this advice and not bother with it. Even if someone listens, they listen with half ear -- listen one moment and forget next moment. Because deep down you know that to look withinwards is to look into Nothingness, Emptiness. There is Nothing. And that is scary, utterly frightening.

Your core Being is non-Being: you are not ready to look into it, to accept it. You are Death-Living. Death is there, and at the very core of your Being there is just Emptiness -- what Buddha calls Anatta. There is no existent self, there is no inherent 'I'. And somehow everybody knows it -- hence few venture inwards, nearly everyone goes looking outwards. Outwards you can befool yourself, you can deceive yourself, your perceptions can be deceptive. You can create many games, you can play with those games -- they are not going to help, but still you can pass your time with those games. You can become so engrossed in them that for those engrossed moments you forget your inner Nothingness, you indulge in strategies of distraction from this dreaded moment. Even spiritual practises can be a distraction if it is not aligned with nothingness or death. The meditational techniques can become tranquillizers that drug you to sleep in order to perpetuate even more exciting dreams.

But this inner Nothingness is your very central Being. So you cannot escape from it, do whatsoever you want to do. Nobody has been able to escape from it. You can go on postponing, you can go on delaying that experience, but one day or other, that experience will catch up with you; you will have to go through it alone.

Knowing one's non-Being as your center, your core, there is great rest, great peace, the peace that suppaseth understanding and knowledge.


This is an interesting point of view. It however implies that there is something that I or someone else can do to change their state of consciousness.

All thoughts, desires, fears, perceptions emanates from the same source, therefore what ever your state of mind or state of consciousness is, this is what this source intends for it to be.

This source has identified itself by many names in it’s expression of the many religions that permeates what appears as this reality. We are not this source, this source is us.

This source defines this experience, this reality, you, I, everything. Non Duality which is another expression of this source & many of the ancient religions state that ‘we’ are all one.

The Non Duality philosophy just recognizes that this sense of separation is an illusion & there really is no you or I or anything, there is just the one, pure awareness or consciousness (the source).

What ever thoughts or ideas, philosophies or what ever, that one may have, they can not stake a claim to as being theirs since they are not the generator of these very thoughts or ideas. These very thoughts & ideas define you & your experience.

Since you are not the generator of these thoughts or ideas, since you are not self defining, it therefore stands to reason that there is no you, there is only the source of you. This translates into you are nothing which is correct, the source of you is also nothing, pure consciousness or awareness.

This is the liberation that understanding brings, but there is nothing that ‘you’ can do to experience understanding. The source of ‘you’ dictates ‘your’ state of consciousness. So pursue this or that as one must, there simply is no choice that ‘any-one’ has in the matter, such is the game of life or the game of pure consciousness.

WHICH IS GREAT! Just depending on the state of consciousness that is expressed as you.

Mathematically speaking, if the source=you, then you=source, so you are the source, playing a game with yourself pretending not to know this. If you want you to know this, it will be known, but there is nothing that you can do about it, this is the game! 'You' can not choose not to play!

Peace! Cool
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dave sirjue



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
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Location: Trinidad

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It however implies that there is something that I or someone else can do to change their state of consciousness.


I don't subscribe to the view of predestination if that's what you're implying. Neither do you have a choice nor do you not have a say in the matter.

Also someone can point out you're playing with fire or you're holding a dangerous snake in your grip. At some point you'll also be able to see the point.

Quote:
This source has identified itself by many names in it’s expression of the many religions that permeates what appears as this reality


If this is in relation to what I wrote, you're deliberately trying to dilute and
distort what I'm saying. I'm questioning the very concept of a source, matrix or creator. We invent these names to console ourself from our imminent demise.

Quote:
Mathematically speaking, if the source=you, then you=source, so you are the source, playing a game with yourself pretending not to know this. If you want you to know this, it will be known, but there is nothing that you can do about it, this is the game! 'You' can not choose not to play!


This is probably another case of the stink of nirvana, pseudo-advaita permeating the web. Is the role being played by your game all sublime, peaceful and fun ? or are you a victim of circumstances, bound and sentenced to imprisonment. You alone can determine whether instead you're part of the herd mentality controlled and manipulated by the inconscience and subconscience; the forces of ignorance that rules greed, aggression and brutal instincts. You alone reserve the rights to reverse, refuse and reject this unsuspecting and unconscious dominance to realise the freedom that comes as a pearl with great price. As one Sufi beautifully puts it: "This Truth, this Freedom is not found by seeking yet only seekers find it".
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cimages



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
It however implies that there is something that I or someone else can do to change their state of consciousness.


dave sirjue wrote:
I don't subscribe to the view of predestination if that's what you're implying. Neither do you have a choice nor do you not have a say in the matter.

Also someone can point out you're playing with fire or you're holding a dangerous snake in your grip. At some point you'll also be able to see the point.".


The idea of predestination is not part of any expression here. Any perceived experience only occurs in this moment, right now, not in the past, not in the future.

Pointing out a perceived tangible danger such as playing with fire or a dangerous snake is very different from pointing out a perceived intangible concept such as experiencing yourself as nothing. This perception is not being debated here, only that you, yourself, can not generate this perception or you are not in control of having it.

cimages wrote:
This source has identified itself by many names in it’s expression of the many religions that permeates what appears as this reality


dave sirjue wrote:

If this is in relation to what I wrote, you're deliberately trying to dilute and
distort what I'm saying. I'm questioning the very concept of a source, matrix or creator. We invent these names to console ourself from our imminent demise.


From this perspective there is no one deliberately trying to do anything. From your perspective this may be true to you but this will only be true to you, but you have not the power to make it true or untrue.....to you.

The idea of a creator, the very first idea of a creator, was expressed by consciousness in the form of thoughts to someone. This, consciousness, is the 'source' of all ideas, ideas that contrast, conflict & contradict one another. You nor I or anyone is not the generator of consciousness, consciousness just is. This consciousness defines everything there is about you, from your physical attributes to your level of intelligence, your state of being & existence. If you deny this I'm simply stating that this 'you' have not the power to accept or deny anything & this acceptance or denial is just being expressed as you.

cimages wrote:
Mathematically speaking, if the source=you, then you=source, so you are the source, playing a game with yourself pretending not to know this. If you want you to know this, it will be known, but there is nothing that you can do about it, this is the game! 'You' can not choose not to play!


dave sirjue wrote:
This is probably another case of the stink of nirvana, pseudo-advaita permeating the web. Is the role being played by your game all sublime, peaceful and fun ? or are you a victim of circumstances, bound and sentenced to imprisonment. You alone can determine whether instead you're part of the herd mentality controlled and manipulated by the inconscience and subconscience; the forces of ignorance that rules greed, aggression and brutal instincts. You alone reserve the rights to reverse, refuse and reject this unsuspecting and unconscious dominance to realise the freedom that comes as a pearl with great price. As one Sufi beautifully puts it: "This Truth, this Freedom is not found by seeking yet only seekers find it".


"The stink of nirvana, pseudo-advaita permeating the web."

Hmmmmnnnnn. You obviously feel very passionately about this. Which is o.k. If passion is what you feel I'm just stating that 'you' can not choose to feel passion or not feel passion. Passion just occurs in the reference point in conciousness called you.

All the other things that you've so passionately expressed are once again based upon a perception of the experience. You simply can not choose to perceive it this way or that, you just do. If at some point in your life this changes, it's not you initiating this change.

As to the Sufi, I would say, I have not the power to generate the desire to seek or not to seek. This desire once again emanates from consciousness, the source, to those that are intended to have it. Once upon this trek, no one has the power to determine what will be found, only consciousness.

From another point of view, there is no one to seek & nothing to be found.

Peace! Cool
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dave sirjue



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
From this perspective there is no one deliberately trying to do anything


Get real my friend, don't prattle what others have said or what you've read and believe. Do you realise the implications of claiming that there is no-one acting/ reacting, that you have no volition and by extension relinquishing your responsibility? Will you tell a policeman or judge that the car was speeding on it's own accord since there was no one driving ? It is probably time you rejoin the real world to regain some sanity.

Quote:
Pointing out a perceived tangible danger such as playing with fire or a dangerous snake is very different from pointing out a perceived intangible concept such as experiencing yourself as nothing


Since there is no one reading this e-mail and no one to respond to it, may I remind you=consciousness that Nothing cannot be an experience nor is it an (intangible) concept. Or if you feel it is a concept or experience, go ahead and think 'bout nothing and then describe it to us. Nothing needs no defense nor can it be exhibited. I know nutting. What perception are you talking about ?
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
From this perspective there is no one deliberately trying to do anything


dave sirjue wrote:
Get real my friend, don't prattle what others have said or what you've read and believe. Do you realise the implications of claiming that there is no-one acting/ reacting, that you have no volition and by extension relinquishing your responsibility? Will you tell a policeman or judge that the car was speeding on it's own accord since there was no one driving ? It is probably time you rejoin the real world to regain some sanity.


"Don't prattle what others have said or what you've read and believe" is a statement that can be applied to almost everyone.

The only thing that can be expressed from this & your vantage point is exactly what you or I perceive 'this' to be. From this vantage point however there is understanding as to why you think, believe & express yourself in a certain way & this is o.k. because you can not choose to do anything but.

As far as relinguishing responsibility & accepting responsibility are two different things, from this perspective there is no one to be responsible & yet responsibility is accepted.

cimages wrote:
Pointing out a perceived tangible danger such as playing with fire or a dangerous snake is very different from pointing out a perceived intangible concept such as experiencing yourself as nothing


dave sirjue wrote:
Since there is no one reading this e-mail and no one to respond to it, may I remind you=consciousness that Nothing cannot be an experience nor is it an (intangible) concept. Or if you feel it is a concept or experience, go ahead and think 'bout nothing and then describe it to us. Nothing needs no defense nor can it be exhibited. I know nutting. What perception are you talking about ?


This is technically correct that nothing can be experienced but a quote from you is as follows:

dave sirjue wrote:
Penetrate into your innermost core and see the reality of how things are. Look within-wards at the very core and you'd see that there is just pure Nothingness"."But this inner Nothingness is your very central Being. So you cannot escape from it, do whatsoever you want to do. Nobody has been able to escape from it. You can go on postponing, you can go on delaying that experience, but one day or other, that experience will catch up with you; you will have to go through it alone."


Your quote has been provided not to discredit you or what you're expressing in any way it however shows the contradictions that is inherent in almost any expressions when trying to define that which is in-definable.

Peace! Cool
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toombaru



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave sirjue wrote:
Quote:
From this perspective there is no one deliberately trying to do anything


Get real my friend,





The attempt to 'get real' is the sole objective of the ego.

An attempt that is doomed to failure.



toombaru








don't prattle what others have said or what you've read and believe. Do you realise the implications of claiming that there is no-one acting/ reacting, that you have no volition and by extension relinquishing your responsibility? Will you tell a policeman or judge that the car was speeding on it's own accord since there was no one driving ? It is probably time you rejoin the real world to regain some sanity.

Quote:
Pointing out a perceived tangible danger such as playing with fire or a dangerous snake is very different from pointing out a perceived intangible concept such as experiencing yourself as nothing


Since there is no one reading this e-mail and no one to respond to it, may I remind you=consciousness that Nothing cannot be an experience nor is it an (intangible) concept. Or if you feel it is a concept or experience, go ahead and think 'bout nothing and then describe it to us. Nothing needs no defense nor can it be exhibited. I know nutting. What perception are you talking about ?
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
From this perspective there is no one deliberately trying to do anything


dave sirjue wrote:
Get real my friend,




toombaru wrote:


The attempt to 'get real' is the sole objective of the ego.

An attempt that is doomed to failure.


Shakespeare's "Macbeth":

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life 's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

THEN! Why do we do it?.........Because we must!

Peace! Cool
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
cimages wrote:
From this perspective there is no one deliberately trying to do anything


dave sirjue wrote:
Get real my friend,




toombaru wrote:


The attempt to 'get real' is the sole objective of the ego.

An attempt that is doomed to failure.


Shakespeare's "Macbeth":

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life 's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

THEN! Why do we do it?.....


"We" don't.


toombaru




....Because we must!

Peace! Cool
Laughing Laughing Laughing
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cimages wrote:
No eyes to see, no 'thing' to be seen!


No 'eyes', no 'thing'. Very Happy

cimages wrote:
The sensation of seeing is just another thought..


Question

cimages wrote:
There really are no colors..


Blue by any other name is blue...

What is 'blue', why and how is it seen... no answer

Where is it seen, and when: here now.

Where is here and when is now... no answer

Who sees it: I do

Who or What is I... no answer

And yet the fact of seeing is undeniable:

Colours, inseparable from the seeing of them.

And so for feelings and sounds and flavours and odours.

Each arising separately in the moment, woven together in an intricate dance.

What do these sensations represent?

Whatever meaning is associated with them (understood).

What is 'meaning', why and how is it understood... no answer

Where is it understood, and when: here now.

Where is here and when is now... no answer

Who understands it: I do

Who or What is I... no answer

And yet the fact of knowing is undeniable.

Meaning, inseparable from the knowing of it.

These words are not it.

Traceless is the source (of sensations and meaning) and

Traceless its image (sensations and meaning)... gone even as its appears.

Love
_________________
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
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dave sirjue



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 43
Location: Trinidad

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cimages wrote:
Quote:
Your quote has been provided not to discredit you or what you're expressing in any way it however shows the contradictions that is inherent in almost any expressions when trying to define that which is in-definable.


I suggest you look to where the words point. If you're dissecting every sentense to find meaning or refutation, I'm afraid your're lost. Wittgenstein
and Nagarjuna have made a remarkable discovery- all language is self-referential and circular.

The experience I'm pointing out is a *direct* or immediate experience
of the senses before it is filtered, translated and interpreted by the conceptual framework of the mind. This can be refered to as "Knowing" for yourself and by yourself. It cannot be described, transmitted or handed over.
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whonowz



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You are searching for stars........with a microscope."

This is reversed isn't it? Maybe turn the scope around. Was feeling something more like:

Searching for neutrons with a telescope...

...since there is a tendency to look 'far and wide' for that which is also right here.
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cimages



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:


Blue by any other name is blue...

What is 'blue', why and how is it seen... no answer

Who sees it: I do

Who or What is I... no answer

And yet the fact of seeing is undeniable:

What do these sensations represent?

Whatever meaning is associated with them (understood).

What is 'meaning', why and how is it understood... no answer

Meaning, inseparable from the knowing of it.

These words are not it.

Traceless is the source (of sensations and meaning) and

Traceless its image (sensations and meaning)... gone even as its appears.

Love


The depths of Consciousness, shapeless, formless, colorless, odorless. From this, the dream world of manifestation arises with all of it’s intricacies in the form of a thought, an image, experienced by no one but conscious awareness.

Up from the depths the thought, of a you arise…….being…….an individual, having an independent conscious experience as if you were separate from the depths that the thought of you arose.

Again, up from the depths of consciousness, the thought…… sensations, the thought…… sensations of smelling, tasting, feeling, seeing. The thought……… I see colors, the thought…… I see blue.

This whole experience of seeing & the color blue is as defined by the thought, the image, that exists only in consciousness. These thoughts that arise out of the depths, define this you & the experience of this you & your perception of what appears as reality to this you.

These thoughts that arise out of the depths of consciousness, as if this you is thinking, making decisions, enjoying flavors, smelling, feeling, doing, loving, interacting within the dream world of manifestation with other ‘yous’ doing somewhat of the same thing.

These thoughts that arise out of the depths apply meaning & understanding to these sensations & interactions that this you now thinks that it is having.

This you is not of consciousness, consciousness is of you. You……… are not this consciousness, this consciousness is…………….you. Consciousness is the only reality & there is only Consciousness.

No you, no me, no this, no that, no colors or smells only……..’THIS’…………Consciousness.

What appears & is experienced by this you as everything else is only……..’THIS’.


Peace! Cool
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cimages



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave sirjue wrote:
I suggest you look to where the words point. If you're dissecting every sentense to find meaning or refutation, I'm afraid your're lost. Wittgenstein
and Nagarjuna have made a remarkable discovery- all language is self-referential and circular.


No dissecting here, no one to be lost, point of view exactly where it is supposed to be, as are yours, no choice in the matter, neither does you.

Wittgenstein & Nagarjuna have discovered nothing, nothing to be discovered, in consciousness all along. They were just the apparent vehicle for its expression.

dave sirjue wrote:
The experience I'm pointing out is a *direct* or immediate experience
of the senses before it is filtered, translated and interpreted by the conceptual framework of the mind. This can be refered to as "Knowing" for yourself and by yourself. It cannot be described, transmitted or handed over.


This mind that you're referring to is an illusion, it exists only as a thought in consciousness & so does its functionality, it has the power to do nothing. So too are the senses, no-thing is prior to thought, other than consciouness, which defines every-apparent-thing.

What is it that 'I' can claim to know. There are these thoughts that seemingly appear from no where into this fixed field of reference called 'me'.

They define a view of reality from this perspective 'me'. 'I' can say these are 'my' thoughts but in all truthfulness 'I' know 'I' have nothing to with thinking them.

The thought that this 'I', have nothing to do with 'knowing', that 'I' 'know', that 'I' have nothing to do with thinking them. Is this the 'knowing' that you're referring to.

All thoughts & ideas come from the same source, including the thought of a you, having thoughts, that express to this you, that these thoughts are yours. This is 'knowing' from this perspective.

From another point of view......There is no one.......& nothing......... to be known.

Peace! Cool
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