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heron
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
michael wrote:
Yes, 'It' appears 'as' the illusion (which is not separate from it), yet the illusion is not 'It'.

The illusion changes, what 'is' does not.

Seeing is constant, even as 'the seen' changes.

How to describe seeing (the faculty to see) as opposed to the 'objects seen'? It cannot be done. Seeing cannot see 'seeing'.

Seeing is simply 'self evident'.

In combination with the other facutlties and the knowing, they are together called 'consciousness'... the undivided reality (by whatever name it is called).

Of course, there is no 'going out' nor 'coming in'.

Let's say that 'Welcome Home' is just a playful greeting to the Self... in need of no greeting to know that it is...

Seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and knowing.

As for 'giving it a go'... no choice in the matter. Cool

Here it is! Surprised Very Happy

Love


The illusion is 'it' illusioning. So how could the illusion not be 'it'? What else could the illusion be ?




The illusion of a mirage is a misinterpretation.....as is the illusion of a separate self.

Any illusion evaporates when its underpinnings are removed.

toombaru


A misinterpetation of what?
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
michael wrote:
Yes, 'It' appears 'as' the illusion (which is not separate from it), yet the illusion is not 'It'.

The illusion changes, what 'is' does not.

Seeing is constant, even as 'the seen' changes.

How to describe seeing (the faculty to see) as opposed to the 'objects seen'? It cannot be done. Seeing cannot see 'seeing'.

Seeing is simply 'self evident'.

In combination with the other facutlties and the knowing, they are together called 'consciousness'... the undivided reality (by whatever name it is called).

Of course, there is no 'going out' nor 'coming in'.

Let's say that 'Welcome Home' is just a playful greeting to the Self... in need of no greeting to know that it is...

Seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and knowing.

As for 'giving it a go'... no choice in the matter. 8)

Here it is! :o :D

Love


The illusion is 'it' illusioning. So how could the illusion not be 'it'? What else could the illusion be ?




The illusion of a mirage is a misinterpretation.....as is the illusion of a separate self.

Any illusion evaporates when its underpinnings are removed.

toombaru


A misinterpetation of what?




Conceptual thought.....is a misinterpretation.


toombaru
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heron
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
michael wrote:
Yes, 'It' appears 'as' the illusion (which is not separate from it), yet the illusion is not 'It'.

The illusion changes, what 'is' does not.

Seeing is constant, even as 'the seen' changes.

How to describe seeing (the faculty to see) as opposed to the 'objects seen'? It cannot be done. Seeing cannot see 'seeing'.

Seeing is simply 'self evident'.

In combination with the other facutlties and the knowing, they are together called 'consciousness'... the undivided reality (by whatever name it is called).

Of course, there is no 'going out' nor 'coming in'.

Let's say that 'Welcome Home' is just a playful greeting to the Self... in need of no greeting to know that it is...

Seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and knowing.

As for 'giving it a go'... no choice in the matter. Cool

Here it is! Surprised Very Happy

Love


The illusion is 'it' illusioning. So how could the illusion not be 'it'? What else could the illusion be ?




The illusion of a mirage is a misinterpretation.....as is the illusion of a separate self.

Any illusion evaporates when its underpinnings are removed.

toombaru


A misinterpetation of what?




Conceptual thought.....is a misinterpretation.


toombaru


of what ? It cant be that difficult can it ? Share it with us directly. It's not about preferred ways of seeing things.........at least in this story.
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
michael wrote:
Yes, 'It' appears 'as' the illusion (which is not separate from it), yet the illusion is not 'It'.

The illusion changes, what 'is' does not.

Seeing is constant, even as 'the seen' changes.

How to describe seeing (the faculty to see) as opposed to the 'objects seen'? It cannot be done. Seeing cannot see 'seeing'.

Seeing is simply 'self evident'.

In combination with the other facutlties and the knowing, they are together called 'consciousness'... the undivided reality (by whatever name it is called).

Of course, there is no 'going out' nor 'coming in'.

Let's say that 'Welcome Home' is just a playful greeting to the Self... in need of no greeting to know that it is...

Seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and knowing.

As for 'giving it a go'... no choice in the matter. 8)

Here it is! :o :D

Love


The illusion is 'it' illusioning. So how could the illusion not be 'it'? What else could the illusion be ?




The illusion of a mirage is a misinterpretation.....as is the illusion of a separate self.

Any illusion evaporates when its underpinnings are removed.

toombaru


A misinterpetation of what?




Conceptual thought.....is a misinterpretation.


toombaru


of what ? It cant be that difficult can it ? Share it with us directly. It's not about preferred ways of seeing things.........at least in this story.




I cannot share it with you......for one very good reason.



toombaru
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
michael wrote:
toombaru slightly amended Very Happy wrote:
heron wrote:
michael wrote:
Yes, 'It' appears 'as' the illusion (which is not separate from it), yet the illusion is not 'It'.

The illusion changes, what 'is' does not.

Seeing is constant, even as 'the seen' changes.

How to describe seeing (the faculty to see) as opposed to the 'objects seen'? It cannot be done. Seeing cannot see 'seeing'.

Seeing is simply 'self evident'.

In combination with the other facutlties and the knowing, they are together called 'consciousness'... the undivided reality (by whatever name it is called).

Of course, there is no 'going out' nor 'coming in'.

Let's say that 'Welcome Home' is just a playful greeting to the Self... in need of no greeting to know that it is...

Seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and knowing.

As for 'giving it a go'... no choice in the matter. Cool

Here it is! Surprised Very Happy

Love


The illusion is 'it' illusioning. So how could the illusion not be 'it'? What else could the illusion be ?




The illusion of a mirage is a (mis)interpretation.....as is the illusion of a separate self.

Any illusion evaporates when its underpinnings are removed.

toombaru


It depends what you mean by the illusion being it.

From the human perspective when you dream a 'nightly dream'. It seems that 'you' are doing things, meeting people 'in the dream'.

Yet the whole dream (every person and thing, including your own 'dream body' and 'dream thoughts' and 'dream feelings' and the 'dream sounds' you hear as other 'dream characters' speak, etc.) are all 'in the dream'.

It could be said from this perspective: "I am the dream and the dream is me".

It is true that the dream is 'me'... who 'I' seem to be.

That is to say, the 'dream me' is not just the 'dream body', it is the whole 'dream experience'... it includes the feeling of the warm sun and the look and feel and sounds as 'I' catch a smooth wave off the tip of some idyllic island. My strong bronzed arms digging into the translucent water.

This 'me' is very different to the 'me' that seems to be imprisoned in a fetid hole in some ghastly nightmare: sallow skin and decaying body, with strange thoughts and terrifying feelings.

It is impossible to separate 'me' from the dream experience.

If 'I' identify with the content, as the content constantly changes, then 'I' too am constantly changing... constantly becoming 'new things'.

On this view, I am not any single 'thing'... I am everything. Yet as these 'dream things' are all 'illusory', so the 'Universal Self who is all things' is an illusion.

On 'waking' both the 'dream things' and the 'dream self' that appears to be 'all things' is no more... as they/it never really is.

But, "Am 'I' the dream"?

What of the 'underlying' reality that remains the same even as the content changes? This is not a question for the intellect. It is 'self evident'.

Where the dream is located, and of what it is composed, are unknowns... it just appears. It is 'one with the dreamer', yet it is not 'the dreamer'.

'The dreamer' wakes, and the dream is no more.

'Dreamer'? Such 'dreamer' cannot be located any more than the dream itself, yet...

Here it is!

As the content of the dream changes, the seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling and knowing of it does not.

The dream (the content) is not separate from awareness of it, but the content is not the awareness (seeing, hearing etc.).

The content is the illusion. It is not misinterpreted, it is simply 'known'. As it is known, so it appears to be: the senses giving apparent form and substance (colour/shape, odour, flavour, feel and sound) to what is known, constantly changing 'moment to moment'.

All the 'while', awareness/knowing (consciousness) remains ever unchanging... in itself entirely one...

Love


Ah........so that which is unchanging awareness/consciousness is the NOT the dream you were talking about earlier..........it was'nt that much of a secret afterall. It was simply another name like Oneness, nothing, or the source, that we use in a dream story about an assumed 'that' which cannot be described.

In this dream story there is absolutely no separation or difference. No line can be drawn between the dream and the unchanging Oneness from which the dream arises. The One is the apparant other. The One and the other are One.

All is dream.......the dream of Oneness


Yes 'all' that can be described is 'dream'... inseparable from unchanging 'oneness'.

Yet there is no dream nor waking... only 'knowing and appearance and not-knowing and non-appearance'... another name for the nameless Very Happy

These words appear and meaning arises... whatever meaning is understood is not it. Confused

Yet here it is!

Not 'here' in some imagined mind of some imagined poster but here seeing and understanding these words... feeling, smelling, tasting, hearing and knowing now.

This that is here now is eternal, even as the words and meaning seem to change, it does not.

Love
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michael



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 3816
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
Ah........so that which is unchanging awareness/consciousness is the NOT the dream you were talking about earlier..........it was'nt that much of a secret afterall. It was simply another name like Oneness, nothing, or the source, that we use in a dream story about an assumed 'that' which cannot be described.


It is an 'assumption' only to thought.

Here (as One sees these words) it is simply self evident. That which is self evident can never be captured in word or thought.

heron wrote:
In this dream story there is absolutely no separation or difference. No line can be drawn between the dream and the unchanging Oneness from which the dream arises. The One is the apparant other. The One and the other are One.

All is dream.......the dream of Oneness


Yes, the dream is the image of One... inseparable. Not as a reflection, but as all that One imagines. Being all possibilities, this image is ever unchanging. (Were it to change, it could never be the complete image of that which never changes. Very Happy )

All meaning is contained within it... self referential 'ideas'. This image is no 'thing' and beyond it is no 'thing'. All 'things' take their meaning from it. As 'meaning' is known, so this is known.

'The dream' appears as these momentary ever changing colours, sounds, flavours, odours, feelings rise and fall in concord with the 'ideas' that give the forms their meaning... creating the impression of 'things' seen and felt and tasted and smelled and heard.

The dream creates the impression of experiencing 'the world' from a specific viewpoint, or 'perspective' called 'me' at a specific 'place and time'. There is no 'me', no 'place', no 'time'... just the experience. Inifinite are these perspectives... experiences without end

In the absence of colours, sounds, flavours, odours, feelings and meaning, what remains?

No 'thing'

This 'no thing' is All...

The faculty/power to see does not disappear as colours disappear, nor hearing in the absence of sound, nor for each of smelling, tasting and feeling in the absence of odours, flavours and feelings. As all colours and other sensations are latent within the senses, so all meaning is latent within the knowing. Together these faculties are called 'consciousness'. Without birth, without death... beginningless, eternal... One.

How colours and other sensations arise in concord with meaning to create this apparent 'momentary' play... no idea Embarassed

Unsensed and Unknown

Here it is!...

Love
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jimK



Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Posts: 21
Location: Sedona, Az. USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Hello...sitting here enjoying thiis thread Reply with quote

Yes...So many threads...so little time. As in the way of a little intro (as thiis is my first post)...My ongoing intent has been to be aware of thoughts, emotions...as much as possible...and most recently, (past few weeks) of visual sensations; i.e., to be aware of whatever these eyes are looking at. And when I look, to be aware of being aware...and where my body is in relationsip to what is being seen. I return to this experience many times in the course of a day. With this practice, I ask "Who Am I?". I ask this during these periods of increased visual awareness...so this questions does not become just another hypnotic, unnoticed thought...Happy to be here...on this board...and sitting in my chair looking at thee pine trees and the red rocks. Jim
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heron
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
michael wrote:
Yes, 'It' appears 'as' the illusion (which is not separate from it), yet the illusion is not 'It'.

The illusion changes, what 'is' does not.

Seeing is constant, even as 'the seen' changes.

How to describe seeing (the faculty to see) as opposed to the 'objects seen'? It cannot be done. Seeing cannot see 'seeing'.

Seeing is simply 'self evident'.

In combination with the other facutlties and the knowing, they are together called 'consciousness'... the undivided reality (by whatever name it is called).

Of course, there is no 'going out' nor 'coming in'.

Let's say that 'Welcome Home' is just a playful greeting to the Self... in need of no greeting to know that it is...

Seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and knowing.

As for 'giving it a go'... no choice in the matter. Cool

Here it is! Surprised Very Happy

Love


The illusion is 'it' illusioning. So how could the illusion not be 'it'? What else could the illusion be ?




The illusion of a mirage is a misinterpretation.....as is the illusion of a separate self.

Any illusion evaporates when its underpinnings are removed.

toombaru


A misinterpetation of what?




Conceptual thought.....is a misinterpretation.


toombaru


of what ? It cant be that difficult can it ? Share it with us directly. It's not about preferred ways of seeing things.........at least in this story.




I cannot share it with you......for one very good reason.



toombaru


Can't we tempt you out to play and just say what ever it is directly ? C'mon tomby dont be shy. Its not about right our wrong ways of seeing......at least not in this story.
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
michael wrote:
Yes, 'It' appears 'as' the illusion (which is not separate from it), yet the illusion is not 'It'.

The illusion changes, what 'is' does not.

Seeing is constant, even as 'the seen' changes.

How to describe seeing (the faculty to see) as opposed to the 'objects seen'? It cannot be done. Seeing cannot see 'seeing'.

Seeing is simply 'self evident'.

In combination with the other facutlties and the knowing, they are together called 'consciousness'... the undivided reality (by whatever name it is called).

Of course, there is no 'going out' nor 'coming in'.

Let's say that 'Welcome Home' is just a playful greeting to the Self... in need of no greeting to know that it is...

Seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and knowing.

As for 'giving it a go'... no choice in the matter. 8)

Here it is! :o :D

Love


The illusion is 'it' illusioning. So how could the illusion not be 'it'? What else could the illusion be ?




The illusion of a mirage is a misinterpretation.....as is the illusion of a separate self.

Any illusion evaporates when its underpinnings are removed.

toombaru


A misinterpetation of what?




Conceptual thought.....is a misinterpretation.


toombaru


of what ? It cant be that difficult can it ? Share it with us directly. It's not about preferred ways of seeing things.........at least in this story.




I cannot share it with you......for one very good reason.



toombaru


Can't we tempt you out to play and just say what ever it is directly ? C'mon tomby dont be shy. Its not about right our wrong ways of seeing......at least not in this story.





If it were possible to say 'what it is'...Leo is the man.

What say you Leo?

toombaru
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heron
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
toombaru wrote:
heron wrote:
michael wrote:
Yes, 'It' appears 'as' the illusion (which is not separate from it), yet the illusion is not 'It'.

The illusion changes, what 'is' does not.

Seeing is constant, even as 'the seen' changes.

How to describe seeing (the faculty to see) as opposed to the 'objects seen'? It cannot be done. Seeing cannot see 'seeing'.

Seeing is simply 'self evident'.

In combination with the other facutlties and the knowing, they are together called 'consciousness'... the undivided reality (by whatever name it is called).

Of course, there is no 'going out' nor 'coming in'.

Let's say that 'Welcome Home' is just a playful greeting to the Self... in need of no greeting to know that it is...

Seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and knowing.

As for 'giving it a go'... no choice in the matter. Cool

Here it is! Surprised Very Happy

Love


The illusion is 'it' illusioning. So how could the illusion not be 'it'? What else could the illusion be ?




The illusion of a mirage is a misinterpretation.....as is the illusion of a separate self.

Any illusion evaporates when its underpinnings are removed.

toombaru


A misinterpetation of what?




Conceptual thought.....is a misinterpretation.


toombaru


of what ? It cant be that difficult can it ? Share it with us directly. It's not about preferred ways of seeing things.........at least in this story.




I cannot share it with you......for one very good reason.



toombaru


Can't we tempt you out to play and just say what ever it is directly ? C'mon tomby dont be shy. Its not about right our wrong ways of seeing......at least not in this story.





If it were possible to say 'what it is'...Leo is the man.

What say you Leo?

toombaru


Oh...............so it's the assumed 'that' which cannot be described again. You should have just said so tomby.

So conceptual thought is a misinterpretation of 'that' which cannot be described.

Agreed. EVERYTHING said about 'that' is a misinterpretation of 'that'. There's no point keep repeating it. Let's just take that as read. Either the illusory you wants to play in this illusory forum or not. Either way is fine by me.
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heron
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael wrote:
heron wrote:
Ah........so that which is unchanging awareness/consciousness is the NOT the dream you were talking about earlier..........it was'nt that much of a secret afterall. It was simply another name like Oneness, nothing, or the source, that we use in a dream story about an assumed 'that' which cannot be described.


It is an 'assumption' only to thought.

Here (as One sees these words) it is simply self evident. That which is self evident can never be captured in word or thought.

heron wrote:
In this dream story there is absolutely no separation or difference. No line can be drawn between the dream and the unchanging Oneness from which the dream arises. The One is the apparant other. The One and the other are One.

All is dream.......the dream of Oneness


Yes, the dream is the image of One... inseparable. Not as a reflection, but as all that One imagines. Being all possibilities, this image is ever unchanging. (Were it to change, it could never be the complete image of that which never changes. Very Happy )

All meaning is contained within it... self referential 'ideas'. This image is no 'thing' and beyond it is no 'thing'. All 'things' take their meaning from it. As 'meaning' is known, so this is known.

'The dream' appears as these momentary ever changing colours, sounds, flavours, odours, feelings rise and fall in concord with the 'ideas' that give the forms their meaning... creating the impression of 'things' seen and felt and tasted and smelled and heard.

The dream creates the impression of experiencing 'the world' from a specific viewpoint, or 'perspective' called 'me' at a specific 'place and time'. There is no 'me', no 'place', no 'time'... just the experience. Inifinite are these perspectives... experiences without end

In the absence of colours, sounds, flavours, odours, feelings and meaning, what remains?

No 'thing'

This 'no thing' is All...

The faculty/power to see does not disappear as colours disappear, nor hearing in the absence of sound, nor for each of smelling, tasting and feeling in the absence of odours, flavours and feelings. As all colours and other sensations are latent within the senses, so all meaning is latent within the knowing. Together these faculties are called 'consciousness'. Without birth, without death... beginningless, eternal... One.

How colours and other sensations arise in concord with meaning to create this apparent 'momentary' play... no idea Embarassed

Unsensed and Unknown

Here it is!...

Love
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heron
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, "Am 'I' the dream"?

Well Micheal...........if 'that' which cannot be described (lets call it Oneness for short) is all......... then Oneness is 'you' and 'the dream'. Therefore 'you' are the 'dream'

If the lion is in the cage
and the cage is in the zoo
therefore the lion is in the zoo.

Dont you think so ?
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toombaru



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 5189
Location: There are no locations

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heron wrote:
But, "Am 'I' the dream"?

Well Micheal...........if 'that' which cannot be described (lets call it Oneness for short) is all......... then Oneness is 'you' and 'the dream'. Therefore 'you' are the 'dream'

If the lion is in the cage
and the cage is in the zoo
therefore the lion is in the zoo.

Dont you think so ?




A tick that realizes that he is part of an elephant's totality can .....with not too much of a leap........ begin to believe that he is actually the elephant.


toombaru
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awakening
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Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 2277

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

toombaru wrote:

A tick that realizes that he is part of an elephant's totality can .....with not too much of a leap........ begin to believe that he is actually the elephant.
toombaru


I am with the tick on this one. Cool That what appears as the tick is That what appears as the elephant. Like a single diamond, totality has (perhaps) facets but definitely no parts that can either get it wrong or right.
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toombaru



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Posts: 5189
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awakening wrote:
toombaru wrote:

A tick that realizes that he is part of an elephant's totality can .....with not too much of a leap........ begin to believe that he is actually the elephant.
toombaru


I am with the tick on this one. Cool That what appears as the tick is That what appears as the elephant. Like a single diamond, totality has (perhaps) facets but definitely no parts that can either get it wrong or right.



The illusory separation catapults to an almost believable realm when mind imagines that it is a man.....who accepts as true an imaginary tick's imagination in which its personal reality is perceived to be that of an elephant.



Rolling Eyes



toombaru
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