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michael
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Post by michael » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:01 am

awakening wrote:
michael wrote:
toombaru wrote:There appears to be an occurrence in which certain individuals are able to become the center of the unnamed and live on the edge of What Is.
there are no 'certain individuals'... except as conceived to exist...

the 'centre' is no where...

the same that seems to look out of leo's eyes... is the same that seems to look out of the eyes of Nisargadatta, Wei Wu Wei.....Jan Cox.......and ALL "others"...

it is the same that seems to look out of the eyes of the tortured heretic...

and the same that seems to look out of the eyes of the inquisitor...

all the same...

there is a story about an abbot who was beaten... being cared for by one of his monks, who asks...'sir who was it who beat you'...

the abbot replies... the same one that is now tending my wounds...

the same that now seems to look out of the eyes of toombaru...

and... as 'apparent life' is seen from the perspective of toombaru...

there are no other 'awarenesses' seeing life from any other perspective...

this awareness seeming to read these words is utterly alone...

there are no separate 'centres'... 'living on the edge'...

all such are purely 'beliefs'... ideas...

there is only this...

this one who reads these words now...

everything I write.....is directed to my self.... from my self... through my self... by my self... as my self... for my self...

it is known.....beyond doubt.....that anything found or lost...occurs within this most peculiar and wonder full arena.... called 'Self'...

it belongs to no man...

every man... and woman... all creatures and things... belong to it... are inseparable from it... (not as cells (little bits) that make a 'whole body' are inseparable from the body... for there are no 'little bits')...

but as an idea is inseparable from the knowing of it... and as colour is inseparable from the seeing of it...

this 'Self' is also called... 'God'... and 'Consciousness'... and 'Spirit' and 'Tao'... and 'Suchness'...

these words become 'objects' as soon as they are 'thought about'...

without thought... they simply symbolise this...

Love


Great piece (peace) of writing Michael..
And being in a precise mood
(OK picky,finical, fussy :D )
only that last sentence seemed to 'jar' a bit.

Without thought
there are are now words to symbolize this..
Just THIS... and even THIS is now a word. ..

ahh yes leo... 'this' is a word... but I wasn't referring to the word... or any meaning to be found in a dictionary...

I was referring to this seeing/colour feeling/feelings hearing/sounds tasting/flavours smelling/odours knowing/number/form/meaning power/controlling that is right now manifesting and perceiving these words... THIS... that cannot be conceived of (thought about)...

in a word... (or two)... :D

as 'actually seeing' defines the word 'seeing'...

so actually being THIS... defines the word 'This'... or 'God' or 'Consciousness'... or whatever name is used...

but of course... while the focus is on these apparent words... the focussing is apparently missed... though it can never be missed... for it is always here...

though it seems convoluted... :roll:

I'm sure that 'I as leo' 'get' this 'meaningless non-sense'... that 'I as michael' am writing... :D

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
michael
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Post by michael » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:27 pm

the only difference in

seeing a sentence written
hearing a sentence spoken
experiencing a sentence thought...

is the nature of the sensations imaging the meaning...

in the first case it is 'colour'
in the second it is 'sound'
and in the third it is '(subtle) sound'

if I write... "I like icecream"... it is expressing a 'conception'
if I speak it... it is the same expression
if I think it... it is the same expression

and if 'another' apparently says it... or writes it.. that too is expressing the same conception...

all words are 'thoughts'... it is just that they are conceived to be of a different character when experienced as 'my thoughts'...

when reading or speaking... or hearing an apparent 'other' speak... I am/you are really 'thinking'...

it just appears that the source of the 'thoughts' are 'outside me on the page/out of the mouth of another person'... but there is no 'me'... and no 'page or other person outside'...

when seeing an 'object'... I am/you are also 'thinking'... without 'words'...

when you see an 'icecream'... it is the same conception that is known... as when the word is read... or heard (as 'self' or 'other' speaking)... or thought...

the difference is in the sensations that image it...

in the case of the apparent object... the colours appear in the shape of the object itself... and not the shape of the word...

as well. there may be a 'flavour sensation' and a 'cold feeling' as it is licked... and perhaps a sound sensation if you slurp it... there may also be a faintly pleasant odour... :D

none of these sensations are anything other than the sensations they are... they are not 'icecream'...

they are simply conceived to be 'me eating an icecream'...

making the experience of 'me eating an icecream' 'what' it is...

the form of the icecream is exceedingly complex... for it includes all of its molecular and atomic and sub-atomic structure...

but none of this is 'sensed'... all of its structure exists only in the knowing... it is purely conceptual...

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
toombaru
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Post by toombaru » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:18 pm

michael wrote:the only difference in

seeing a sentence written
hearing a sentence spoken
experiencing a sentence thought...

is the nature of the sensations imaging the meaning...

in the first case it is 'colour'
in the second it is 'sound'
and in the third it is '(subtle) sound'

if I write... "I like icecream"... it is expressing a 'conception'
if I speak it... it is the same expression
if I think it... it is the same expression

and if 'another' apparently says it... or writes it.. that too is expressing the same conception...

all words are 'thoughts'... it is just that they are conceived to be of a different character when experienced as 'my thoughts'...

when reading or speaking... or hearing an apparent 'other' speak... I am/you are really 'thinking'...

it just appears that the source of the 'thoughts' are 'outside me on the page/out of the mouth of another person'... but there is no 'me'... and no 'page or other person outside'...

when seeing an 'object'... I am/you are also 'thinking'... without 'words'...

when you see an 'icecream'... it is the same conception that is known... as when the word is read... or heard (as 'self' or 'other' speaking)... or thought...

the difference is in the sensations that image it...

in the case of the apparent object... the colours appear in the shape of the object itself... and not the shape of the word...

as well. there may be a 'flavour sensation' and a 'cold feeling' as it is licked... and perhaps a sound sensation if you slurp it... there may also be a faintly pleasant odour... :D

none of these sensations are anything other than the sensations they are... they are not 'icecream'...

they are simply conceived to be 'me eating an icecream'...

making the experience of 'me eating an icecream' 'what' it is...

the form of the icecream is exceedingly complex... for it includes all of its molecular and atomic and sub-atomic structure...

but none of this is 'sensed'... all of its structure exists only in the knowing... it is purely conceptual...

Love

......conceptual.............and slippery.


:lol:




toombaru
jeff j
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Post by jeff j » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:44 pm

Toombaru writes:

Dear Leo,

There appears to be an occurrence in which certain individuals are able to become the center of the unnamed and live on the edge of What Is.

I can hear IT in your words......I can hear IT in Nisargadatta, Wei Wu Wei.....Jan Cox.......and a few "others".

Everything I write.....is directed to my self.

It is known.....beyond doubt.....that anything found or lost...will occur within
that most peculiar arena.

In that context.....I would like to extend my gratitude to you and the people on this list.

I think that I should go insane.......confined to the normal day to day human tedium.

But there remains...day and night.....a most delightful Light........that encompasses and embraces the confusion........and I suspect that that...........Is who I am.


Love




toombaru



Strangely........It is also known that all of that......is part of the dream.

:D
be yourself, the real fictional character?
Lydian
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Location: UK

Post by Lydian » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:10 pm

awakening wrote:
toombaru wrote: But............There seems to be certain prerequisites that the conceptual mind must fulfill before that of which you speak can become a reality.

It appears here that first the societal overburden must be removed before that-which-is becomes apparent.


Then again......all of this may just be another belief structure within the dream.
Indeed... "There seems to be certain prerequisites that the conceptual mind must fulfill before that of which you speak can become a reality." And this 'seeming prerequisites' are manifestations of IT appearing as the conceptual mind... The assumption of a process over time through which one has to go to reach the 'promised land'.

But THIS is already the promised land and the process over time to become 'purified', 'deserving' or 'ripe' is the very illusion of time and person-hood the One weaves so expertly. S-HE is the best -no the ONLY- story teller there is.

As you say: "all of this may just be another belief structure within the dream."

=D> :D

No requirements are necessary (including a requirement for no requirements).

All there is is this current-ness going on........ however it appears.......

So right now if it is uttered; "I don't get it", then that is what is........

Yet, in this current of completeness a sweet aroma of certainty may arise........

In which even the "I don't get it" appears as not different from the very IT that is meant to be so elusive......

.
toombaru
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Post by toombaru » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:15 pm

Lydian wrote:
awakening wrote:
toombaru wrote: But............There seems to be certain prerequisites that the conceptual mind must fulfill before that of which you speak can become a reality.

It appears here that first the societal overburden must be removed before that-which-is becomes apparent.


Then again......all of this may just be another belief structure within the dream.
Indeed... "There seems to be certain prerequisites that the conceptual mind must fulfill before that of which you speak can become a reality." And this 'seeming prerequisites' are manifestations of IT appearing as the conceptual mind... The assumption of a process over time through which one has to go to reach the 'promised land'.

But THIS is already the promised land and the process over time to become 'purified', 'deserving' or 'ripe' is the very illusion of time and person-hood the One weaves so expertly. S-HE is the best -no the ONLY- story teller there is.

As you say: "all of this may just be another belief structure within the dream."

=D> :D

No requirements are necessary (including a requirement for no requirements).

All there is is this current-ness going on........ however it appears.......

So right now if it is uttered; "I don't get it", then that is what is........

Yet, in this current of completeness a sweet aroma of certainty may arise........

In which even the "I don't get it" appears as not different from the very IT that is meant to be so elusive......

.
\:D/


toombaru
michael
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by michael » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:22 pm

toombaru wrote:
michael wrote:the only difference in

seeing a sentence written
hearing a sentence spoken
experiencing a sentence thought...

is the nature of the sensations imaging the meaning...

in the first case it is 'colour'
in the second it is 'sound'
and in the third it is '(subtle) sound'

if I write... "I like icecream"... it is expressing a 'conception'
if I speak it... it is the same expression
if I think it... it is the same expression

and if 'another' apparently says it... or writes it.. that too is expressing the same conception...

all words are 'thoughts'... it is just that they are conceived to be of a different character when experienced as 'my thoughts'...

when reading or speaking... or hearing an apparent 'other' speak... I am/you are really 'thinking'...

it just appears that the source of the 'thoughts' are 'outside me on the page/out of the mouth of another person'... but there is no 'me'... and no 'page or other person outside'...

when seeing an 'object'... I am/you are also 'thinking'... without 'words'...

when you see an 'icecream'... it is the same conception that is known... as when the word is read... or heard (as 'self' or 'other' speaking)... or thought...

the difference is in the sensations that image it...

in the case of the apparent object... the colours appear in the shape of the object itself... and not the shape of the word...

as well. there may be a 'flavour sensation' and a 'cold feeling' as it is licked... and perhaps a sound sensation if you slurp it... there may also be a faintly pleasant odour... :D

none of these sensations are anything other than the sensations they are... they are not 'icecream'...

they are simply conceived to be 'me eating an icecream'...

making the experience of 'me eating an icecream' 'what' it is...

the form of the icecream is exceedingly complex... for it includes all of its molecular and atomic and sub-atomic structure...

but none of this is 'sensed'... all of its structure exists only in the knowing... it is purely conceptual...

Love

......conceptual.............and slippery.


:lol:




toombaru
of course it is 'conceptual'... if meaning is perceived in the apparent words... :roll:

and slippery too... for what is being indicated is impossible to understand... 8)

without understanding... it is all meaningless non-sense... :shock:

I am/you are... is the same... all differences are conceptual only... made apparent through sensations...

Love
Last edited by michael on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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michael
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Post by michael » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:56 pm

toombaru wrote:
Lydian wrote:
awakening wrote:
toombaru wrote: But............There seems to be certain prerequisites that the conceptual mind must fulfill before that of which you speak can become a reality.

It appears here that first the societal overburden must be removed before that-which-is becomes apparent.


Then again......all of this may just be another belief structure within the dream.
Indeed... "There seems to be certain prerequisites that the conceptual mind must fulfill before that of which you speak can become a reality." And this 'seeming prerequisites' are manifestations of IT appearing as the conceptual mind... The assumption of a process over time through which one has to go to reach the 'promised land'.

But THIS is already the promised land and the process over time to become 'purified', 'deserving' or 'ripe' is the very illusion of time and person-hood the One weaves so expertly. S-HE is the best -no the ONLY- story teller there is.

As you say: "all of this may just be another belief structure within the dream."

=D> :D

No requirements are necessary (including a requirement for no requirements).

All there is is this current-ness going on........ however it appears.......

So right now if it is uttered; "I don't get it", then that is what is........

Yet, in this current of completeness a sweet aroma of certainty may arise........

In which even the "I don't get it" appears as not different from the very IT that is meant to be so elusive......

.
\:D/


toombaru
yes Lydian... what 'is not' appears as not different from this that 'is'... simply because this that 'is' does not appear...

so it seems there is only dream (what 'is not')...

but what 'is not' cannot be like (ie 'not different from') this that 'is'...

though what 'is not' is inseparable from what 'is'... what 'is' remains... even as what 'is not' disappears... each apparent instant...

what 'is not'... is the 'dream of a story'... manifest as these ever changing meaningless sensations sensed...

what appears to be 'elusive'... is inescapable...

no thing sensing sensations... knowing... all things... as One...instantly manifesting this dream...

nameless... it is called many names...

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
hybrid
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Post by hybrid » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:32 am

fox wrote: Or will a new bodymind appear, which will inhabit the same dream world?

This seems to be an utterly important question here!
to a wave it is utterly important question as to what will become of it.
but to the ocean, the question is not even relevant.

always anticipating the next life, without realizing that this life was the next life anticipitaed in the previous life only to anticipate again the next life when the next life occurs.

hmmm, no wonder they called it an endless cycle


godspeed
Do not seek the Truth, just drop your opinions.

you cannot seek it without thoughts
you cannot get it with thoughts - zenrin
toombaru
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Post by toombaru » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:56 am

hybrid wrote:
fox wrote: Or will a new bodymind appear, which will inhabit the same dream world?

This seems to be an utterly important question here!
to a wave it is utterly important question as to what will become of it.
but to the ocean, the question is not even relevant.

always anticipating the next life, without realizing that this life was the next life anticipitaed in the previous life only to anticipate again the next life when the next life occurs.

hmmm, no wonder they called it an endless cycle


godspeed





Very few waves return after they disappear.


(bumper sticker)





toombaru
michael
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Post by michael » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:35 am

hybrid wrote:
fox wrote: Or will a new bodymind appear, which will inhabit the same dream world?

This seems to be an utterly important question here!
to a wave it is utterly important question as to what will become of it.
but to the ocean, the question is not even relevant.

always anticipating the next life, without realizing that this life was the next life anticipitaed in the previous life only to anticipate again the next life when the next life occurs.

hmmm, no wonder they called it an endless cycle


godspeed
here is only one ocean... and one apparent wave being generated at any apparent moment...

the 'next life' may be experiencing a moment in 'life' as 'toombaru'... 8)

or... as any other of the billions of 'people' that are conceived to be 'alive' at 'this moment in time'... or at any other time... or in any other (world) story... including a 'nightly dream'...

there is no 'requirement' that the 'next moment' appear as a continuation of the life apparently being lived 'this moment'...

there are no moments... each apparent moment is entirely free of 'necessity'...

each apparent moment comes with the memory of 'past moments' (to that point in time... in the story) of the life of the person being experienced... so it appears as a 'continuum'... but it is not... it is instant...

the only necessity is that dictated by the story...

whichever story is being experienced... from whatever perspective it is being experienced... at whatever moment in the story it is being experienced...

the 'sensory image' must... of necessity... accord with that story... from that perspective... at that moment in the story... as it is being experienced...

however... the 'next moment' may be from an entirely different perspective... in another story altogether...

the choice to manifest this moment... in this story... from this perspective now!... is entirely spontaneous... without cause or reason or desire... unbound by law or necessity...

such choice is not a result of prior action or thought... it is instant... it cannot be controlled... it is the controller... One with this consciousness...

whatever appears... appears by choice... and the power to manifest sensations in accord with any story chosen...

this power to manifest by choice is called Maya by some

by others the Kingdom of God...

but...

as there is no (and can never be any) awareness of this choice... or of the co-incident power to manifest the precise appearance this apparent moment... in accord with the chosen story being told...

such choice and such power appears to be 'non-existent'... to be just another story...

so it appears as though 'consciousness' is at the 'mercy' of a 'random story generator'... forced to 'witness' whatever 'chance' throws its way...

Love
Last edited by michael on Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ANNA
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Post by ANNA » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:12 am

When a cloud emerges from a blue sky, there are specific conditions that create the cloud.

It appears from the sky, but does not resemble the sky in color, scale, texture, or scope.

:wink: :)
toombaru
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Post by toombaru » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:17 am

ANNA wrote:When a cloud emerges from a blue sky, there are specific conditions that create the cloud.

It appears from the sky, but does not resemble the sky in color, scale, texture, or scope.

:wink: :)



What is the sky again?.........I forgot.



:roll:






toombaru
ANNA
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Post by ANNA » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:20 am

toombaru wrote:
ANNA wrote:When a cloud emerges from a blue sky, there are specific conditions that create the cloud.

It appears from the sky, but does not resemble the sky in color, scale, texture, or scope.

:wink: :)



What is the sky again?.........I forgot.



:roll:






toombaru
Who is asking?......I forgot.

:P :wink: :lol:
toombaru
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Post by toombaru » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:26 am

ANNA wrote:
toombaru wrote:
ANNA wrote:When a cloud emerges from a blue sky, there are specific conditions that create the cloud.

It appears from the sky, but does not resemble the sky in color, scale, texture, or scope.

:wink: :)



What is the sky again?.........I forgot.



:roll:






toombaru
Who is asking?......I forgot.

:P :wink: :lol:



The asking .................is asking.



toombaru
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