Designer Gods

toombaru
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Re: Designer Gods

Post by toombaru » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:16 am

michael wrote:
toombaru wrote:
michael wrote:
toombaru wrote:
Aurora wrote:
toombaru wrote:Diabetes, ALS, chronic back pain, Lupis, Cancer, macular degeneration, arthritus, malaria, AIDS, herpes, dementia, stroke, hepatitus A and B, cistic fibrosis, Lyme disease, plague, STD flesh eating bacteria, tape worm, sickle cell anemia, Parkenson's disease, Alzheimer's, congestive heart failure, kidney stones, Terretts, Lymphatic filariasiis, arrhythmia, schitzophrenia, flat feet. etc.etc.etc.




........................good job God.

you know how the vision works? How the outside light is transmitted through the lens , the signal transportet through the 2. brain nerve and via transmission " seen " throug the vision part of the brain.

Do you know how the fertilized egg, is growing, how the growing cells are folding themselves , and spezializing , growing for 9 months, and then coming out , to grow, talk, walk, and finally post at an internet forum!

you know how the gas exchange is working in the smallest part of the airways, giving new oksygen to the body tissue and breathing CO 2 out.

do you know how the sinus rytmic senter in the heart is fiering, giving heartbeats, how the valves is opening, and closing at right times for the blood to go out.

you know how the DNA is working, coding for the protein the body needs?


....... I have been working with diseases day and also nights for 15 years , and still at wonder of the miracle of the body .......

.......I can stabilize a fracture, but it is healing by itself........

.....I can give medicin for an arytmia, but its the heart beating that is the miracle....


Its the miracle, toombaru , the miracle ....



It is all a miracle....Which means......it isn't a miracle at all.

And the attempt to explain it by saying that a god did it all......says nothing.


Theologians have struggled....unsuccessfully...for eons in an attempt to explain a compassionate god that would create such suffering.

Why couldn't He just create a world without all the pain?

Oh....I know...I've heard all the arguments.

They all conclude with something like suffering is good....or God has mysterious ways......

Tell me.......Why do you believe that a god would allow the suffering that you see everywhere?





toombaru
can't have 'good' without 'evil'...

why 'allow it'...

the question is 'who suffers'...

where there is 'preference'... already 'two' is apparent...

Love


In nature......there are no polar opposites.

They exist only within the conceptual self......and cannot be used as a reference to anything.



toombaru
so where is this 'good' and 'evil' of which you speak that arises from the belief in god...

Love


When a desperately thirsty man continues to stumble toward a mirage .......ignoring all counsel..........in an attempt to quench his thirst..........life....as experienced through him....is thwarted.


........which means that all of life is diminished.





toombaru
michael
Posts: 3816
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:13 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Designer Gods

Post by michael » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:16 am

toombaru wrote:
michael wrote:
toombaru wrote:
michael wrote:
toombaru wrote:
Aurora wrote:
toombaru wrote:Diabetes, ALS, chronic back pain, Lupis, Cancer, macular degeneration, arthritus, malaria, AIDS, herpes, dementia, stroke, hepatitus A and B, cistic fibrosis, Lyme disease, plague, STD flesh eating bacteria, tape worm, sickle cell anemia, Parkenson's disease, Alzheimer's, congestive heart failure, kidney stones, Terretts, Lymphatic filariasiis, arrhythmia, schitzophrenia, flat feet. etc.etc.etc.




........................good job God.

you know how the vision works? How the outside light is transmitted through the lens , the signal transportet through the 2. brain nerve and via transmission " seen " throug the vision part of the brain.

Do you know how the fertilized egg, is growing, how the growing cells are folding themselves , and spezializing , growing for 9 months, and then coming out , to grow, talk, walk, and finally post at an internet forum!

you know how the gas exchange is working in the smallest part of the airways, giving new oksygen to the body tissue and breathing CO 2 out.

do you know how the sinus rytmic senter in the heart is fiering, giving heartbeats, how the valves is opening, and closing at right times for the blood to go out.

you know how the DNA is working, coding for the protein the body needs?


....... I have been working with diseases day and also nights for 15 years , and still at wonder of the miracle of the body .......

.......I can stabilize a fracture, but it is healing by itself........

.....I can give medicin for an arytmia, but its the heart beating that is the miracle....


Its the miracle, toombaru , the miracle ....



It is all a miracle....Which means......it isn't a miracle at all.

And the attempt to explain it by saying that a god did it all......says nothing.


Theologians have struggled....unsuccessfully...for eons in an attempt to explain a compassionate god that would create such suffering.

Why couldn't He just create a world without all the pain?

Oh....I know...I've heard all the arguments.

They all conclude with something like suffering is good....or God has mysterious ways......

Tell me.......Why do you believe that a god would allow the suffering that you see everywhere?





toombaru
can't have 'good' without 'evil'...

why 'allow it'...

the question is 'who suffers'...

where there is 'preference'... already 'two' is apparent...

Love


In nature......there are no polar opposites.

They exist only within the conceptual self......and cannot be used as a reference to anything.



toombaru
so where is this 'good' and 'evil' of which you speak that arises from the belief in god...

Love


When a desperately thirsty man continues to stumble toward a mirage .......ignoring all counsel..........in an attempt to quench his thirst..........life....as experienced through him....is thwarted.


........which means that all of life is diminished.





toombaru
so no longer is this 'play' seen as the outcome of purely 'mechanical/probabalistic laws' operating on/within 'substantial-nature' when aggregated as 'brains in bodies'...

now the story has switched to 'beliefs'...having causal power to create suffering

there is no such thing as a 'belief'... except as conceived...

there is only knowing concepts... whether the concept is of 'fairies' or 'evolution' or 'god'...

as the concept is imaged... so it is known... along with the idea that one concept is 'real' and another is 'not real'...

drop the concepts...

and there is just this...

and even if it concepts are not dropped...

it is still just this...

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
toombaru
Posts: 5189
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 9:02 pm
Location: There are no locations

Re: Designer Gods

Post by toombaru » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:34 am

so no longer is this 'play' seen as the outcome of purely 'mechanical/probabalistic laws' operating on/within 'substantial-nature' when aggregated as 'brains in bodies'...

now the story has switched to 'beliefs'...having causal power to create suffering

there is no such thing as a 'belief'... except as conceived...

there is only knowing concepts... whether the concept is of 'fairies' or 'evolution' or 'god'...

as the concept is imaged... so it is known... along with the idea that one concept is 'real' and another is 'not real'...

drop the concepts...

and there is just this...

and even if it concepts are not dropped...

it is still just this...

Love[/quote]




The by-product of the mechanical delusion is suffering.

There appears to be break...a weak spot... in the self-referential loop that is the sense of separation....and that appears to simply be the understanding of its own nature.

It recoils when exposed to the light of understanding......and what is left in its wake is non-conceptual awe.


The function of a god figure ......and the accompanying mythos..... is to shelter the delusion from its own ultimate vacuity.



toombaru

awakening
Site Admin
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:10 pm

Post by awakening » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:48 am

Toombaru…

You appear to have changed from a poet in to what is commonly known a realist and I really wonder what makes you continue to come to this forum.

Lately you’re very big on promoting the standard mainstream view on life.
Some of the recurring points seem to be;

• Conversation about God, Oneness or Tao is just to comfort the fearful conditioned mind.
• What is presently seen is the outcome of past events.
• Consequently time and evolution are indisputable facts.
• Life is sort of a mechanical response machine, geared to survival, in which the human mind seems to be seen as sort of a ‘design flaw.’

The cutting edge of science is questioning such 'facts' as space and time but that is another discussion.

In promoting this standard mainstream view, you have taken the high ground as if it is a brave stance; a true willingness to see how it relay is, as opposed to many self deluding and fearful fools, who do not see it that way.

Are you trying to give a helping hand to the misguided? If so, it seems to be out of compassion, but you’ve made it clear that the likes of ‘compassion’ or ‘gratitude’ have no place in your outlook.

If you are trying to share your views, why then the specific attraction to this forum, which stated roots are in the acknowledgment of ‘Oneness’? (Or perhaps 'not-two-ness' is a more apt pointer.) If you find that objectionable, you’ve made your point and I’m sure there are many better places on the web to speak out against god, what a bad job he has done, or to talk about evolution and life’s mechanical ‘nature.’

Really this forum has room for such a discussion, but it has been said many times…that the word ‘god’ as used here, does not represent the classical Judeo-Christian monarch/potentate…So why keep twisting what you read to fit your apparent crusade?

I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really do wonder what the drive behind this insistent line of posting truly is, for which –as I mentioned above- there are much better places to post them.

Could we please have the poet-story teller Toombaru back?
If only for a while...


awakening
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Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:10 pm

Post by awakening » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:00 am

PS

Perhaps Leo has taken it too serious
and Toombaru just likes to dance..

But, if so, could you perhaps include a :wink: every now an the to tip us of?
michael
Posts: 3816
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:13 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Designer Gods

Post by michael » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:24 am

toombaru wrote:
michael wrote:(it appears from michaels perspective... that from toombaru's perspective :D )... no longer is this 'play' seen as the outcome of purely 'mechanical/probabalistic laws' operating on/within 'substantial-nature' when aggregated as 'brains in bodies'...

(now it appears)... the story has switched to 'beliefs'... having causal power to create suffering...

there is no such thing as a 'belief'... except as conceived...

there is only knowing concepts... whether the concept is of 'fairies' or 'evolution' or 'god'...

as the concept is imaged... so it is known...

along with the idea that one concept is 'real' and another is 'not real'...
drop the concepts...

and there is just this...

and even if it concepts are not dropped...

it is still just this...

Love
The by-product of the mechanical delusion is suffering.

There appears to be break...a weak spot... in the self-referential loop that is the sense of separation....and that appears to simply be the understanding of its own nature.

It recoils when exposed to the light of understanding......and what is left in its wake is non-conceptual awe.

The function of a god figure ......and the accompanying mythos..... is to shelter the delusion from its own ultimate vacuity.
more stories in the name of 'toombaru'...

in every 'age' there are 'mystics'...

though there are no such... just a 'character' in the play of life...

it is ever this same One enjoying the experience of realising the vacuity of appearances... and its own eternal 'Beingness' (no concept in mind)...

but just to make it interesting... on 'each occasion'... the 'apparent process'... or 'practice'... or 'conception'... or 'experience'... or 'whatever seemed to lead to this awareness' or 'which seems to characterise it'... is then thought to be 'the way' for 'others' to follow...

if only they could 'see'.. or 'realise' as I do... they too would get it!

but of course there is no process or practice or view of life or conception or experience or anything else that 'opens up a weak spot'...

'non-conceptual awe'...

does not include the concepts of:

"The by-product of the mechanical delusion is suffering.

There appears to be break...a weak spot... in the self-referential loop that is the sense of separation....and that appears to simply be the understanding of its own nature.

It recoils when exposed to the light of understanding......and what is left in its wake is non-conceptual awe."

nor the concepts of 'people deluded by beliefs in a malevolent god... or any other god... or no god'...

no 'One' is deluded... though there is the experience of being deluded...

this appears... as One takes on a persona... in which it appears there are 'others' who are deluded... 8)

have 'you' noticed... that 'delusion' always happens to 'others' and not to 'me'... :shock:

but it is all just a story...

perhaps it is time to see through the story...

and just have a good laugh...

or a beer... or that cup of coffee you offered...

and enjoy this 'non-conceptual awe'... :D

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
toombaru
Posts: 5189
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 9:02 pm
Location: There are no locations

Post by toombaru » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:43 pm

awakening wrote:PS

Perhaps Leo has taken it too serious
and Toombaru just likes to dance..

But, if so, could you perhaps include a :wink: every now an the to tip us of?



:lol:


The poet is still here..........watching.



The so called self is an elaborate....imaginary.... structure that evolved to help the physical organism survive.

It is as natural as any other life form.


When consciousness becomes aware of itself.........a most peculiar phenomenon occurs.

The illusion of a separate self emerges and that is what the Buddha refers to as suffering.

A self-referential closed loop forms .......identification with the conceptual world solidifies......and the dream of separation begins.

The belief in God and gods is merely a part of the structure that sustains and supports the illusory self....but it is a weak spot....in that it crumbles under sincere inquiry....leaving the kingdom vulnerable.


There are other weak spots......



Toombaru is here to explore his personal labyrinth.........Please don't take seriously what come through him.........He doesn't.




















:lol:
joy
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:52 pm

Post by joy » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:51 pm

Here is something I heard, and I found it to be one of those marvelsous confirmations of The Infinite Mind Knowing It knows....

There are first hand reports of people who have been blind since birth who had 'near death experiences' and came out of the 'body' and could see perfectly well. They did not see 'concepts' of things, they saw things and KNEW exactly what they were seeing. They knew a car, an ambulance, trees, sky, mom, dad, street, telephone poles or be it the hospital room, the surgery table et al....they knew what they were seeing. And when they slipped back into the body, they remembered that they could see and reported correctly the scene going on.

My take: Divine Intelligence is All That Is....It is our very Identity. I think we are unfolding like a rose, blooming into this the Light of Understanding and... oh, i know, it already is perfect and is all in all just as is it....and yes, I agree with this, I know this well....it is my very root and foundation from which all else arises.....I know there is no time and no one to bloom, but I think This Living Perfection knows exactly what it is doing and for now the 'set up' is to feel as though we wander in the what seems to be the 'is not real' so as to find for ourselves, each one of us, first hand, face to face, That Which is Real.....then, when it is ours, ours personal and real, we truly rejoice and truly Know we Know. The deal is to find it first hand, once again, to return, in away....One day, after much discovery and uncovery we do run smack dab into This Blessed Living Presence That I Am....and we know it when we see it, no more questions.

Once, before time, when we 'lived in the perfect state of being oneness, we didn't know what it was....so slipping into what seems like time and space, we find a world of contrast, the contra distinction, the 'is not Love, is Not Perfection' and we test it out, and we explore it, and sometimes, with any luck, the heart is broken, or something dawns somehow, each in our own way, we eventually 'come home' to the Knowing we Know. We are still here in this world of time and space, but now we Know we know....and that is most peaceful and warm.

The blind, the diseased, the ageing, the pain, the misery, death, and suffering....none of it is real....But seems real so as to be the fine Discipline we need....Life as it is now is really our 'theology school. The images are the teachers, passing stories of this 'movie' is so we walk out of class knowing what we learned, knowing, knowing we know.....and Yes, There is Field, and we Live This Field right now....and some can recognize this Ever Present Perfect Light That is Being The Real Self and The Ifinite All, yet so, while still being here in the body-sense-limited view.... This is of great help, this is why the forum here, at least for me, to support one another in our recognition of our Inate and Genuine Self....So we learn, and our own clarity gives us the freedom from fear so to make living in the world a True Joy and Delight, just the way it is....just as it is.....and gives us the fortitude and wisdom to be able to do the 'right thing' while here.
Intuitive, yes, we become highly intuitive....As I say, all along here, Trust yourself, you are wise beyond 'this realm'......

Joy
toombaru
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Re: Designer Gods

Post by toombaru » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:19 pm

michael wrote:
toombaru wrote:
michael wrote:(it appears from michaels perspective... that from toombaru's perspective :D )... no longer is this 'play' seen as the outcome of purely 'mechanical/probabalistic laws' operating on/within 'substantial-nature' when aggregated as 'brains in bodies'...

(now it appears)... the story has switched to 'beliefs'... having causal power to create suffering...

there is no such thing as a 'belief'... except as conceived...

there is only knowing concepts... whether the concept is of 'fairies' or 'evolution' or 'god'...

as the concept is imaged... so it is known...

along with the idea that one concept is 'real' and another is 'not real'...
drop the concepts...

and there is just this...

and even if it concepts are not dropped...

it is still just this...

Love
The by-product of the mechanical delusion is suffering.

There appears to be break...a weak spot... in the self-referential loop that is the sense of separation....and that appears to simply be the understanding of its own nature.

It recoils when exposed to the light of understanding......and what is left in its wake is non-conceptual awe.

The function of a god figure ......and the accompanying mythos..... is to shelter the delusion from its own ultimate vacuity.
more stories in the name of 'toombaru'...

in every 'age' there are 'mystics'...

though there are no such... just a 'character' in the play of life...

it is ever this same One enjoying the experience of realising the vacuity of appearances... and its own eternal 'Beingness' (no concept in mind)...

but just to make it interesting... on 'each occasion'... the 'apparent process'... or 'practice'... or 'conception'... or 'experience'... or 'whatever seemed to lead to this awareness' or 'which seems to characterise it'... is then thought to be 'the way' for 'others' to follow...

if only they could 'see'.. or 'realise' as I do... they too would get it!

but of course there is no process or practice or view of life or conception or experience or anything else that 'opens up a weak spot'...

'non-conceptual awe'...

does not include the concepts of:

"The by-product of the mechanical delusion is suffering.

There appears to be break...a weak spot... in the self-referential loop that is the sense of separation....and that appears to simply be the understanding of its own nature.

It recoils when exposed to the light of understanding......and what is left in its wake is non-conceptual awe."

nor the concepts of 'people deluded by beliefs in a malevolent god... or any other god... or no god'...

no 'One' is deluded... though there is the experience of being deluded...

this appears... as One takes on a persona... in which it appears there are 'others' who are deluded... 8)

have 'you' noticed... that 'delusion' always happens to 'others' and not to 'me'... :shock:

but it is all just a story...

perhaps it is time to see through the story...

and just have a good laugh...

or a beer... or that cup of coffee you offered...

and enjoy this 'non-conceptual awe'... :D

Love



Yes Michael,


All that is spoken of here is seeing through the story.


Sometimes that can be a painful process......sometimes a very painful process.


The walls that protect the self are have evolved for eons.....and do not fall easily.

Now..........about that coffee.....



:lol:




toombaru
Hatima
Posts: 443
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Post by Hatima » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:22 pm

The poet is still here..........watching.



The so called self is an elaborate....imaginary.... structure that evolved to help the physical organism survive.

It is as natural as any other life form.


When consciousness becomes aware of itself.........a most peculiar phenomenon occurs.

The illusion of a separate self emerges and that is what the Buddha refers to as suffering.

A self-referential closed loop forms .......identification with the conceptual world solidifies......and the dream of separation begins.

The belief in God and gods is merely a part of the structure that sustains and supports the illusory self....but it is a weak spot....in that it crumbles under sincere inquiry....leaving the kingdom vulnerable.


There are other weak spots......



Toombaru is here to explore his personal labyrinth.........Please don't take seriously what come through him.........He doesn't.






















:lol:[/quote] :)

The personal labyrinth is the dream, the illusion.
What more can be said about it?
Maybe this.....................................................
................................................................. :)
sunyaakash
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:21 pm
Location: sky

Post by sunyaakash » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:03 pm

Absolutely nothing .

Words that don't mean .


S
Aurora
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:14 am

Post by Aurora » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:42 pm

awakening wrote:Toombaru…

You appear to have changed from a poet in to what is commonly known a realist and I really wonder what makes you continue to come to this forum.

Lately you’re very big on promoting the standard mainstream view on life.
Isnt we all the One ?

Compared to my personal labyrinth of cynicism and my own layers of eons of suppression and illusion, toombaru is a kind uncle.

...and the standard mainstream view on life? isnt it the One in play?

I am in love with toombarus writing, the harshness, the exploring, the discarding, the hurt, the pain, the love.

www.byregion.net/rumi
awakening
Site Admin
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:10 pm

Post by awakening » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Aurora wrote:
awakening wrote:Toombaru…

You appear to have changed from a poet in to what is commonly known a realist and I really wonder what makes you continue to come to this forum.

Lately you’re very big on promoting the standard mainstream view on life.
Isnt we all the One ?

Compared to my personal labyrinth of cynicism and my own layers of eons of suppression and illusion, toombaru is a kind uncle.

...and the standard mainstream view on life? isnt it the One in play?

I am in love with toombarus writing, the harshness, the exploring, the discarding, the hurt, the pain, the love.

www.byregion.net/rumi
Of course.... it is all the same One
And yet...Different strokes for different folks.


michael
Posts: 3816
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:13 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by michael » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:16 pm

toombaru wrote:
awakening wrote:PS

Perhaps Leo has taken it too serious
and Toombaru just likes to dance..

But, if so, could you perhaps include a :wink: every now an the to tip us of?



:lol:


The poet is still here..........watching.



The so called self is an elaborate....imaginary.... structure that evolved to help the physical organism survive.

It is as natural as any other life form.


When consciousness becomes aware of itself.........a most peculiar phenomenon occurs.

The illusion of a separate self emerges and that is what the Buddha refers to as suffering.

A self-referential closed loop forms .......identification with the conceptual world solidifies......and the dream of separation begins.

The belief in God and gods is merely a part of the structure that sustains and supports the illusory self....but it is a weak spot....in that it crumbles under sincere inquiry....leaving the kingdom vulnerable.

There are other weak spots......

Toombaru is here to explore his personal labyrinth.........Please don't take seriously what come through him.........He doesn't.

:lol:
'toombaru' can explore nothing... he is the 'labyrinth'...

and nothing comes 'through him'...

such imagery is like imaging that water seen coming out of a tap in a nightly dream comes through a pipe...

no.... I don't take anything written seriously... it is all play... including these words...

Love
From Source to Source: an Endless Spring
toombaru
Posts: 5189
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 9:02 pm
Location: There are no locations

Post by toombaru » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:37 pm

michael wrote:
toombaru wrote:
awakening wrote:PS

Perhaps Leo has taken it too serious
and Toombaru just likes to dance..

But, if so, could you perhaps include a :wink: every now an the to tip us of?



:lol:


The poet is still here..........watching.



The so called self is an elaborate....imaginary.... structure that evolved to help the physical organism survive.

It is as natural as any other life form.


When consciousness becomes aware of itself.........a most peculiar phenomenon occurs.

The illusion of a separate self emerges and that is what the Buddha refers to as suffering.

A self-referential closed loop forms .......identification with the conceptual world solidifies......and the dream of separation begins.

The belief in God and gods is merely a part of the structure that sustains and supports the illusory self....but it is a weak spot....in that it crumbles under sincere inquiry....leaving the kingdom vulnerable.

There are other weak spots......

Toombaru is here to explore his personal labyrinth.........Please don't take seriously what come through him.........He doesn't.

:lol:

'toombaru' can explore nothing... he is the 'labyrinth'...

and nothing comes 'through him'...



We're dancin now.

such imagery is like imaging that water seen coming out of a tap in a nightly dream comes through a pipe...

A spin....and a dip........

.....The mirrored ball in the center pulls the dancers up.......


no.... I don't take anything written seriously... it is all play... including these words...

Love
:lol:

.....the dance floor separates..........and then..........only space.






Michael,



It may not always sound like it.........but I really do enjoy your company.


:lol:



toombaru
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