If you think you have it...........

dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:19 am

Zed wrote:
No! When the "dream of separation" is 'seen through', the universe does not vanish. This is more metaphysical theory.

The 'awakening' is TO the dream, not FROM it.

No! In Dutch ( and Leo Hartong is a Dutchman) the title of the book calls:

'Ontwaken IN de droom' = 'Awakening IN the dream' ...and thàt is the "fact" (dreamfact).

Image

Every word is 'theoretical', so 'yours' too.

'But you cannot blame 'a signpost to the moon' for not being the moon.'

The dream is UNREAL because it IS a dream.

The dream is REAL because it IS a REAL dream.

We are speaking here about 'Nonduality' (Not-Two)...
so WHO awakens TO the dream then eh?
Last edited by dilaram on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zed
Posts:30
Joined:Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:46 pm

Post by Zed » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:26 am

dilaram wrote:
Zed wrote:
No! When the "dream of separation" is 'seen through', the universe does not vanish. This is more metaphysical theory.

The 'awakening' is TO the dream, not FROM it.

No! In Dutch ( and Leo Hartong is a Dutchman) the title of the book calls:

'Ontwaken IN de droom' = 'Awakening IN the dream' and thàt is the "fact" (dreamfact).

Every word is 'theoretical', so 'yours' too.

'But you cannot blame 'a signpost to the moon' for not being the moon.'

The dream is UNREAL because it IS a dream.

The dream is REAL because it IS a REAL dream.

Now, what you have to say about that?

Waking TO or IN the dream is the same thing in this context - it is not a waking FROM the dream.

To use the wave/water analogy: when the wave realizes that its true nature is in fact water. Waves do not vanish - they are known to have a relative reality.

The One 'substance' and source of waves is water. This is the meaning of nonduality; not that there is not an appearance of multiple waves - but that their source and 'substance' is One (or, if you prefer, not multiple.)
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:30 am

Then you're making a fuss about nothing.

Then we're saying exactly the same thing in other words.
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:33 am

Zed wrote:


No! When the "dream of separation" is 'seen through', the universe does not vanish. This is more metaphysical theory.

The 'awakening' is TO the dream, not FROM it.

You cannot have a universe without 'someone' to be aware of it, to observe it and to label it AS a universe.

Did I say something 'vanishes'?

Something that doesn't exist CANNOT vanish.

Can a shadow vanish???...yes apparently it can!
Zed
Posts:30
Joined:Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:46 pm

Post by Zed » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:33 am

dilaram wrote:Then you're making a fuss about nothing.

Then we're saying exactly the same thing in other words.
I'm just responding to a comment.

But yes, we probably are saying the same thing in other words.

:D
ANNA
Posts:4093
Joined:Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:11 pm

Post by ANNA » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:37 am

Since things neither exist nor don't exist,
are neither real nor unreal,
are utterly beyond adopting and rejecting,
one might as well burst out laughing.


Longchenpa Rabjampa - Tibet, 14th century


:wink: :lol:


Hallo!


[wink] [bigsmile]
Last edited by ANNA on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:38 am

Zed wrote:

Waking TO or IN the dream is the same thing in this context - it is not a waking FROM the dream.

To use the wave/water analogy: when the wave realizes that its true nature is in fact water. Waves do not vanish - they are known to have a relative reality.

The One 'substance' and source of waves is water. This is the meaning of nonduality; not that there is not an appearance of multiple waves - but that their source and 'substance' is One (or, if you prefer, not multiple.)

Nonduality has NO meaning! (or it has EVERY meaning which makes the concept 'meaning' meaningless)...

Only 'duality' which APPEARS in the 'Nondual' has endless meanings according to the standpoint.

I NEVER said that 'there is no appearance', you're putting me words in my mouth to make your point easier.
Zed
Posts:30
Joined:Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:46 pm

Post by Zed » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:47 am

dilaram wrote:
Zed wrote:

Waking TO or IN the dream is the same thing in this context - it is not a waking FROM the dream.

To use the wave/water analogy: when the wave realizes that its true nature is in fact water. Waves do not vanish - they are known to have a relative reality.

The One 'substance' and source of waves is water. This is the meaning of nonduality; not that there is not an appearance of multiple waves - but that their source and 'substance' is One (or, if you prefer, not multiple.)

Nonduality has NO meaning! (or it has EVERY meaning which makes the concept 'meaning' meaningless)...

Only 'duality' which APPEARS in the 'Nondual' has endless meanings according to the standpoint.

I NEVER said that 'there is no appearance', you're putting me words in my mouth to make your point easier.
I never said that you specifically said that 'there is no appearance'. I used the analogy in order to make a general point for anyone who is interested.

I am far happier emphasizing points of agreement rather than looking for differences.

You know, all this metaphysical stuff is a phase. Eventually mountains and rivers will once again be seen to be mountains and rivers - and life goes on... with the recognition that 'life and its source are undivided'. Leo Hartong coined the phrase Lucid Living (long before Timothy Freke coincidentally made extensive use of it) to illustrate this sense of an ordinary life without the illusion of a separate-self center.

And that's all there is to it.
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:06 am

Zed wrote:
I never said that you specifically said that 'there is no appearance'. I used the analogy in order to make a general point for anyone who is interested.

I am far happier emphasizing points of agreement rather than looking for differences.

You know, all this metaphysical stuff is a phase. Eventually mountains and rivers will once again be seen to be mountains and rivers - and life goes on... with the recognition that 'life and its source are undivided'. Leo Hartong coined the phrase Lucid Living (long before Timothy Freke coincidentally made extensive use of it) to illustrate this sense of an ordinary life without the illusion of a separate-self center.

And that's all there is to it.
:?:
Zed wrote:The One 'substance' and source of waves is water. This is the meaning of nonduality; not that there is not an appearance of multiple waves - but that their source and 'substance' is One (or, if you prefer, not multiple.)
What is this then? '...not that there is not an appearance...'?

Did I say something about 'lucid living' or Tim Freke?

You started with this :
Zed wrote:No! When the "dream of separation" is 'seen through', the universe does not vanish. This is more metaphysical theory.

The 'awakening' is TO the dream, not FROM it
If you don't like 'metaphysical theory' ...what are you doing then here?

On a forum you find nothing more than 'theory'...'words'...'pointers'...'signposts'...

'practical words' is a 'theoretical concept'!
fox
Posts:821
Joined:Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:07 am
Location:Switzerland

Post by fox » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:44 pm

ANNA wrote:Since things neither exist nor don't exist,
are neither real nor unreal,
are utterly beyond adopting and rejecting,
one might as well burst out laughing.


Longchenpa Rabjampa - Tibet, 14th century


:wink: :lol:


Hallo!


[wink] [bigsmile]
Hallo Anna!




If you say the universe does exist, you assert.
If you say the universe does not exist, you deny.
Beyond assertion and denial, what is the universe?


8) :arrow:
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:20 pm

fox wrote:
Hallo Anna!




If you say the universe does exist, you assert.
If you say the universe does not exist, you deny.
Beyond assertion and denial, what is the universe?


8) :arrow:
Beyond assertion, you cannot ask what the universe is, because 'what is the universe is?', a questioning is an assertion too.

:wink:
ANNA
Posts:4093
Joined:Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:11 pm

Post by ANNA » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:30 pm

fox wrote:
ANNA wrote:Since things neither exist nor don't exist,
are neither real nor unreal,
are utterly beyond adopting and rejecting,
one might as well burst out laughing.


Longchenpa Rabjampa - Tibet, 14th century


:wink: :lol:


Hallo!


[wink] [bigsmile]
Hallo Anna!




If you say the universe does exist, you assert.
If you say the universe does not exist, you deny.
Beyond assertion and denial, what is the universe?


8) :arrow:

Hi foxy :)

lovely quote,

no comment,

just accept it

what is.............


is........


.................................



yestreday recalled about you,

got a weekly quote from Kip Mazuy

and recalled, that you have posted his quotes

very often on your website......


here goes his last quote:




Transcending Understanding


"If you expect something
in meditation
then you are expecting too much.

When you are ready to fall into
this moment
regardless of the outcome.

Because you have exhausted
the urge to be something,
to attain something
to change something
to improve yourself
or your world.

When you give up
trying to get it
and accept this chaotic mess
that you find yourself to be,
then meditation
embraces you;
meditation takes over.

You enter a whole new experience
of what is real.

Devoid of stress and conflict
where everything that arises
burns blissfully away
in consciousness.

This is true peace.

It does require effort
to realize such peace.

To try and be effortless
without any effort
can often just lead
to laziness and depression.

But when you give it your all,
when you dive deep into
your spiritual practice
and commit to that,

at some point in frustration
you give up
and fall into this moment.

You fall
and you never stop falling
until you see there is nothing
there that is falling.

There is just consciousness.

Then it all makes sense.

It makes sense because
understanding has fallen away
and that is a wonderful freedom.


Blessings,


Kip"





www.bliss-music.com



.
toombaru
Posts:5189
Joined:Tue May 10, 2005 9:02 pm
Location:There are no locations

Post by toombaru » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:40 pm

Zed wrote:
dilaram wrote:
Zed wrote:
No! When the "dream of separation" is 'seen through', the universe does not vanish. This is more metaphysical theory.

The 'awakening' is TO the dream, not FROM it.

No! In Dutch ( and Leo Hartong is a Dutchman) the title of the book calls:

'Ontwaken IN de droom' = 'Awakening IN the dream' and thàt is the "fact" (dreamfact).

Every word is 'theoretical', so 'yours' too.

'But you cannot blame 'a signpost to the moon' for not being the moon.'

The dream is UNREAL because it IS a dream.

The dream is REAL because it IS a REAL dream.

Now, what you have to say about that?

Waking TO or IN the dream is the same thing in this context - it is not a waking FROM the dream.

To use the wave/water analogy: when the wave realizes that its true nature is in fact water. Waves do not vanish - they are known to have a relative reality.

The One 'substance' and source of waves is water. This is the meaning of nonduality; not that there is not an appearance of multiple waves - but that their source and 'substance' is One (or, if you prefer, not multiple.)




Comparing waves to selfs doesn't hold water.
toombaru
Posts:5189
Joined:Tue May 10, 2005 9:02 pm
Location:There are no locations

Post by toombaru » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:51 pm

ANNA wrote:
fox wrote:
ANNA wrote:Since things neither exist nor don't exist,
are neither real nor unreal,
are utterly beyond adopting and rejecting,
one might as well burst out laughing.


Longchenpa Rabjampa - Tibet, 14th century


:wink: :lol:


Hallo!


[wink] [bigsmile]
Hallo Anna!




If you say the universe does exist, you assert.
If you say the universe does not exist, you deny.
Beyond assertion and denial, what is the universe?


8) :arrow:

Hi foxy :)

lovely quote,

no comment,

just accept it

what is.............


is........


.................................



yestreday recalled about you,

got a weekly quote from Kip Mazuy

and recalled, that you have posted his quotes

very often on your website......


here goes his last quote:




Transcending Understanding


"If you expect something
in meditation
then you are expecting too much.

When you are ready to fall into
this moment
regardless of the outcome.

Because you have exhausted
the urge to be something,
to attain something
to change something
to improve yourself
or your world.

When you give up
trying to get it
and accept this chaotic mess
that you find yourself to be,
then meditation
embraces you;
meditation takes over.

You enter a whole new experience
of what is real.

Devoid of stress and conflict
where everything that arises
burns blissfully away
in consciousness.

This is true peace.

It does require effort
to realize such peace.

To try and be effortless
without any effort
can often just lead
to laziness and depression.

But when you give it your all,
when you dive deep into
your spiritual practice
and commit to that,

at some point in frustration
you give up
and fall into this moment.

You fall
and you never stop falling
until you see there is nothing
there that is falling.

There is just consciousness.

Then it all makes sense.

It makes sense because
understanding has fallen away
and that is a wonderful freedom.


Blessings,


Kip"





www.bliss-music.com



.




The sense of separation imagines that it can morph itself into a permanent state of bliss.

It attempts to manipulate its own perceptions in a way that will duplicate the silly grin on its guru's face.

In its attempts to improve its imagined circumstances, it tries to get away from the only window that it will ever have.

Any teacher that is honest......will sell no books.
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:41 pm

toombaru wrote:Any teacher that is honest......will sell no books.
:roll:

Luckily Leo Hartong wrote a book ...

with as result he started this website annex forum...

What would you otherwise do with your time?

You're already 5 years here and wrote nearly 5000 postings...


:wink: :P :lol:
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