Objectivity

makara
Posts: 1341
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:09 am
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

Objectivity

Post by makara » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:50 am

" Objectivity is a subject' s delusion that observing can be done without him/her. Invoking objectivity is abrogating responsibility hence its popularity."
Heinz Foerster

Go Heinz!
But did they listen?
Of course not.
Kailashana
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 pm

Post by Kailashana » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:47 am

Thank you for this, M.

It's balm for the nondual sickness that so often permeates these lists. It's so easy to catch, but more difficult to let go.

~A
dilaram

Re: Objectivity

Post by dilaram » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:55 am

makara wrote:" Objectivity is a subject' s delusion that observing can be done without him/her. Invoking objectivity is abrogating responsibility hence its popularity."
Heinz Foerster

Go Heinz!
But did they listen?
Of course not.
Kailashana wrote:Thank you for this, M.

It's balm for the nondual sickness that so often permeates these lists. It's so easy to catch, but more difficult to let go.

~A
Objectifying the 'Non-objectifiable Subject' is the apparent 'sickness/dis-ease/problem' 'The One Subject' projects in Itself.

Responsibility, irresponsibility, arrogance, restlessness are symptoms of this so-called 'sickness'.

Sickness is always 'dual', because it cannot exist without its opposite: 'health'.

And 'duality' is a phenomenon in which everything depends on its opposite.

'Nonduality' is a dual concept which doesn't point at 'a phenomenon'.

It points at 'the Non-conceptual'.
Last edited by dilaram on Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kailashana
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 pm

Post by Kailashana » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:11 pm

There is no such thing as homeostasis. It is against nature...intrinsic of growth and decay. Of ascending and descending one's train of thoughts.

~A
makara
Posts: 1341
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:09 am
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

Post by makara » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:14 am

Objectifying the 'Non-objectifiable Subject' is the apparent 'sickness/dis-ease/problem'
What did you imagine H.Foerster is saying?
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:56 am

makara wrote:
Objectifying the 'Non-objectifiable Subject' is the apparent 'sickness/dis-ease/problem'
What did you imagine H.Foerster is saying?
Do you think he meant the same? Okay.

:)
dilaram

Re: Objectivity

Post by dilaram » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:07 am

makara wrote:" Objectivity is a subject' s delusion that observing can be done without him/her. Invoking objectivity is abrogating responsibility hence its popularity."
Heinz Foerster

Go Heinz!
But did they listen?
Of course not.
If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all. ~Jacob Hornberger
Kailashana
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 pm

Post by Kailashana » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:03 pm

I was unfamiliar with Hornberger, Dilaram. I liked your signature line quote and googled him. My partner knew he was a Libertarian before I found this site. http://www.fff.org/aboutUs/press/fc.asp after googling the books he authored.

We then had a lengthy discussion, an ongoing discussion into the nature of spirituality, non/dualism (he, however, is a Christian) and politics.
Ayn Rand seems to have catapulted him as much as his heritage and the community in which he was reared. True for all of us.

Suffice it to say, we are all products of our environment AND our nurturing, our beLIEf systems and our ability to remain open-minded and open-hearted.

What I am certain of is that no political party has ALL the answers, just as all religions have a seed of truth as long as love and compassion are espoused and not rote ritual and/or dogma at the expense of our *humanity* and *freedom* to overpower another.

We live in *interesting* times and smile at this thought.


~A
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:50 pm

Kailashana wrote:I was unfamiliar with Hornberger, Dilaram. I liked your signature line quote and googled him. My partner knew he was a Libertarian before I found this site. http://www.fff.org/aboutUs/press/fc.asp after googling the books he authored.

We then had a lengthy discussion, an ongoing discussion into the nature of spirituality, non/dualism (he, however, is a Christian) and politics.
Ayn Rand seems to have catapulted him as much as his heritage and the community in which he was reared. True for all of us.

Suffice it to say, we are all products of our environment AND our nurturing, our beLIEf systems and our ability to remain open-minded and open-hearted.

What I am certain of is that no political party has ALL the answers, just as all religions have a seed of truth as long as love and compassion are espoused and not rote ritual and/or dogma at the expense of our *humanity* and *freedom* to overpower another.

We live in *interesting* times and smile at this thought.


~A
Everything I write is just a pointer to that which you are.
Kailashana
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 pm

Post by Kailashana » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:35 pm

Does this imply: that which I am is nothing but your pointer?

:lol:
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:17 pm

Kailashana wrote:Does this imply: that which I am is nothing but your pointer?

:lol:
Every thought you have about yourself or the world is a pointer to yourself.
Xmac
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:56 am
Location: Boston area, Massachusetts

Post by Xmac » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:28 pm

Kailashana wrote:There is no such thing as homeostasis. It is against nature...intrinsic of growth and decay. Of ascending and descending one's train of thoughts.

~A
Growth and decay create a balance or equilibrium of nature. Systems that seem out of balance are not, because there are no closed systems.
Log on to the inner-net and be kind to your mind (or not).
Blossom
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:02 pm
Location: Ojai, California

Post by Blossom » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:52 pm

Yes, Me too, I will go see this website you mention---for me, I believe these days we are in are the 'destined' times where we begin to uncover the lies pertaining to the false authority of human governments and controlling-fear based religions (Popes, Muslim mullahs, and all the rest of that horror show) --

We are each and everyone of us going to find where The Real Authority Is---It is Within Us--- We are each beginning to see that the Authentic Authority is not "out there" in any "other" man or group or "ism" or ideolgoy others would foist on others---

It is time to Find Our Self Here Within Us--- Others cannot impose freedom on others, not any group can make another free---Freedom is OUR Inherent Light Already Being Who we are---We Claim It and LIve and then watch what happens (which is what is happening, so trust yourself and keep Living The Truth of Who you ARE)

Many years ago I read Atlas Shrugged, its message still rings honest, clear and true for me too--- For me the Libertarian party is closer to the Truth, but it is still an organized belief system. We need to find our Inner Light within Us and then Live IT---That LIght is The redeemer, the Real Messiah within Us, The Child, The Christ Consciousness that abides within us all---That One is Freedom Itself and beholden to no one, bows to no man who puts themselves up as authority over another.

We find That Original Selfhood and then we See The Real Liberation and Freedom that must eventually come.

Do not be duped by socialism and communism ---oh, me, I think socialism is the devils work---And I'd explain the devil as the 'human ego' that thinks it knows anything and usually knows what is best for you and me, promoting guilt and judgmentalism in the name of a sick form of 'equaility' ---

Who we are is Real and IT is This Awareness Which Belongs not to ''man' but to Godhead All---So far, we take our orders from those who perpetuate the lie; that we are separate from the very Light that is Being Us.

When you and I begin to Live The Infinite Mind, Godhead, The Isness of All Being All That I Am (you are, we are)--Then "out there" will begin to Reflect What is Within Us---It is beginning to happen---The Already Is will be Seen.

The following from someone who had honest insight that could see the future (saying to me, "its because all time, past and future, is included in Here and Now" :

"-----People are individually willing to adjust, as their intuitions and feelings come into focus, but the controlling groups to which they belong, are vigorously holding to the old ways, refusing to listen to the New Sounds within. Either the institutions of mankind adjust to allow men to change mental course, or there will be a sociological anguish unparalleled in human history." (William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A "Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics")
What is bound on earth is bound in heaven and what is freed on earth is freed in heaven.
Blossom
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:02 pm
Location: Ojai, California

Post by Blossom » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:19 pm

Subjectivism = Non-dual (Within One Mind)

"Present civilization and its organizations (religious, philosophical, educational, scientific, financial) are like the great bend in the river of life just before the shallows ahead-just before the unsuspected turbulence of subjectivism when life roars through the narrow passages. Historic education-religious education in particular-has paid little attention to its prophets. It has deemed subjectivism too unsettling and difficult to teach. Our temptation is to hang on to the old ways where few demands are made and the familiar pacifies us. But the River of Life is moving relentlessly in growing, ongoing information, and the River of Life includes the rapids of metaphysical subjectivism whether churchdom and science want to examine it and tell of it or not. As content as we might be in our religious views-or in avoiding spiritual matters altogether as so many do-the end of the quiet time looms for everyone. We are approaching a New View of things. The world is already caught in the swift flow of quantum information leading to new knowledge and strange, startling vistas.

For the new perspectives being thrust upon us, neither the objective studies of religion nor the subjective studies of metaphysics, as they are presented today, will be adequate. The tumult we are already facing insists that mankind, if he is to survive, begin to think in a new way. Humanity, with its physical sciences leading, is soon to confirm the insubstantial nature of matter and time. " (William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A "Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics")
What is bound on earth is bound in heaven and what is freed on earth is freed in heaven.
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:27 pm

Blossom wrote:Subjectivism = Non-dual (Within One Mind)

"Present civilization and its organizations (religious, philosophical, educational, scientific, financial) are like the great bend in the river of life just before the shallows ahead-just before the unsuspected turbulence of subjectivism when life roars through the narrow passages. Historic education-religious education in particular-has paid little attention to its prophets. It has deemed subjectivism too unsettling and difficult to teach. Our temptation is to hang on to the old ways where few demands are made and the familiar pacifies us. But the River of Life is moving relentlessly in growing, ongoing information, and the River of Life includes the rapids of metaphysical subjectivism whether churchdom and science want to examine it and tell of it or not. As content as we might be in our religious views-or in avoiding spiritual matters altogether as so many do-the end of the quiet time looms for everyone. We are approaching a New View of things. The world is already caught in the swift flow of quantum information leading to new knowledge and strange, startling vistas.

For the new perspectives being thrust upon us, neither the objective studies of religion nor the subjective studies of metaphysics, as they are presented today, will be adequate. The tumult we are already facing insists that mankind, if he is to survive, begin to think in a new way. Humanity, with its physical sciences leading, is soon to confirm the insubstantial nature of matter and time. " (William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A "Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics")
(Nothing = Non-dual) emerging as (something = dual)
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