Objectivity

ANNA
Posts: 4093
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:11 pm

Post by ANNA » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:38 am

makara wrote:
even when we are entraped

within our own imaginary traps.....lol
:lol:
______________________

Spot the difference:
Every 'objectied subject' is part of the illusion
Objectivity is a subject' s delusion
:wink:

i recalled right now about

Consciousness_without_an_object

as Franklin Merrel-Wolf called it


1. Consciousness is original, self-existent, and constitutive of all things. Wolff's term "Consciousness" here does not mean consciousness as opposed to unconsciousness. Nor does Wolff use the word "Consciousness" here as a consciousness involving any particular structure or mode of experience, such as the structure of intentionality, or the mode of our typical experience based on the distinction between subject and object. Rather, the meaning of the term "Consciousness" here is THAT which is the primordial ground and essential nature of all modes and forms of experience, both subjective and objective. In Wolff's words, The One, nonderivative Reality, is THAT which I have symbolized by 'Consciousness- without-an-object.' This is Root Consciousness, per se, to be distinguished from consciousness as content or as state, on the one hand, and from consciousness as an attribute of a Self or Atman, in any sense whatsoever. It is Consciousness of which nothing can be predicated in the privative sense save abstract Being. Upon It all else depends, while It remains self-existent. Thus, Consciousness is primary, i.e., it is first, prior to everything. Not before or first in the sense of time or temporal sequence, but prior in the sense of not being secondary to or derivative from anything else. Hence, Consciousness is self-existent, i.e., it does not depend upon anything else for its being and is entirely self-sufficient and complete. In particular, Consciousness does not depend upon, and is not derivative from, matter, energy, or any other substance. On the contrary, all experience and all objects are derivative from Consciousness. Thus Consciousness is constitutive of all things, i.e., all things are, in their ultimate nature, nothing but this Primordial Consciousness itself.





http://www.scribd.com/doc/38601830/Franklin-Merrel-Wolf



.
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:49 am

Thanks for the link Anna.

:)
makara
Posts: 1341
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Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

Post by makara » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:53 am

Just reading right now...

http://deoxy.org/w_nature.htm

The Nature Of Consciousness

ah ... hello me ... cooooeeeeee me in Sofia & Belgium
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:42 am

makara wrote:Just reading right now...

http://deoxy.org/w_nature.htm

The Nature Of Consciousness

ah ... hello me ... cooooeeeeee me in Sofia & Belgium
Read some books of Watts ('The Wisdom Of Insecurity' and 'Become What You Are') good stuff for 'this chap Dil'.

:wink:
Kailashana
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 pm

Post by Kailashana » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:32 pm

Watts, book, *Nature, Man and Woman*... is more than enough.

What else is there? hahaha!

~A
Blossom
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:02 pm
Location: Ojai, California

Post by Blossom » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:50 pm

dilaram wrote:
Blossom wrote:Yes, The One Mind does indeed express as the appearances of many---

This is It---This tangible world is the evidence of One Unseen Light--

Not sure if you were backing me up or were you presenting an opposing point of view?

We are the world we walk through---It cannot be one or the other--- The world is a reflection of 'within'---

You be it, you see it---
Non-duality isn't a point of view, only appears so.

Non-duality is a point a view, its a certain plateau upon the Mountian of this tangible world experience appearances (otherwise known in Ancient Chinese wisdom as Da Shan)---

"non-duality" is but a higher point of view, but a point of view nonetheless-


Here is something excellent I know you would be open minded enough to read and furthermore could understand without pre-conditioned concepts hindering the heart's tender knowing:

http://www.williamsamuel.com/07-25-07-G ... yramid.htm
What is bound on earth is bound in heaven and what is freed on earth is freed in heaven.
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:12 pm

Blossom wrote:
dilaram wrote:
Blossom wrote:Yes, The One Mind does indeed express as the appearances of many---

This is It---This tangible world is the evidence of One Unseen Light--

Not sure if you were backing me up or were you presenting an opposing point of view?

We are the world we walk through---It cannot be one or the other--- The world is a reflection of 'within'---

You be it, you see it---
Non-duality isn't a point of view, only appears so.

Non-duality is a point a view, its a certain plateau upon the Mountian of this tangible world experience appearances (otherwise known in Ancient Chinese wisdom as Da Shan)---

"non-duality" is but a higher point of view, but a point of view nonetheless-


Here is something excellent I know you would be open minded enough to read and furthermore could understand without pre-conditioned concepts hindering the heart's tender knowing:

http://www.williamsamuel.com/07-25-07-G ... yramid.htm

For "a point of view" you need two : "the one who has the point of view (1)" and "that which is viewed (2)"

and "nonduality" (a dual concept) points to "a reality" which goes beyond "duality" (two-ness)

but in which this duality appears as waves on the ocean.

So 'non-duality' is not a viewpoint but it appears as such.
Blossom
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:02 pm
Location: Ojai, California

Post by Blossom » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:24 pm

dilaram wrote:
Blossom wrote:
dilaram wrote:
Blossom wrote:Yes, The One Mind does indeed express as the appearances of many---

This is It---This tangible world is the evidence of One Unseen Light--

Not sure if you were backing me up or were you presenting an opposing point of view?

We are the world we walk through---It cannot be one or the other--- The world is a reflection of 'within'---

You be it, you see it---
Non-duality isn't a point of view, only appears so.

Non-duality is a point a view, its a certain plateau upon the Mountian of this tangible world experience appearances (otherwise known in Ancient Chinese wisdom as Da Shan)---

"non-duality" is but a higher point of view, but a point of view nonetheless-


Here is something excellent I know you would be open minded enough to read and furthermore could understand without pre-conditioned concepts hindering the heart's tender knowing:

http://www.williamsamuel.com/07-25-07-G ... yramid.htm

For "a point of view" you need two : "the one who has the point of view (1)" and "that which is viewed (2)"

and "nonduality" (a dual concept) points to "a reality" which goes beyond "duality" (two-ness)

but in which this duality appears as waves on the ocean.

So 'non-duality' is not a viewpoint but it appears as such.
You know, I still disagree with that ---

clearly I have different point of view than you do --- 8)
What is bound on earth is bound in heaven and what is freed on earth is freed in heaven.
makara
Posts: 1341
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:09 am
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

Post by makara » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:38 am

So 'non-duality' is not a viewpoint but it appears as such.
Perhaps this is dead right.
Perhaps it is sophistry.
I really don't know.

What I ask is how can it help?
Does it facilitate greater awareness?
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:27 am

makara wrote:
So 'non-duality' is not a viewpoint but it appears as such.
Perhaps this is dead right.
Perhaps it is sophistry.
I really don't know.

What I ask is how can it help?
Does it facilitate greater awareness?
It which is not an it does everything and nothing at all.

It doesn't have to 'help' or 'create greater awareness for' itself, only apparently so.
Last edited by dilaram on Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:36 am

Blossom wrote:
You know, I still disagree with that ---

clearly I have different point of view than you do --- 8)
No problem.

8)
awakening
Site Admin
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:10 pm

Post by awakening » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:47 am

makara wrote:
So 'non-duality' is not a viewpoint but it appears as such.
Perhaps this is dead right.
Perhaps it is sophistry.
I really don't know.

What I ask is how can it help?
Does it facilitate greater awareness?
'Greater' is an appearance/object in awareness.
Awareness cannot be greater,
just like we cannot create extra room in space
-or decrease space-
by adding or removing objects.

Understanding
-as in 'understanding mathematics'-
can expand,
but the aware-space
in which such 'blossoming' occurs
does not expand.

It is impossible to add to hat
which has no form, no limits no location and so on...
All qualifications appear in awareness
but non apply to it.

Qualifying IT as not qualifiable
is of course in itself a qualification.

The thorn
and the thorn that removes the thorn
can both be discarded
by no one.


.
makara
Posts: 1341
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:09 am
Location: By the ocean, ready for the big one.

Post by makara » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:02 am

Greater' is an appearance/object in awareness.
Awareness cannot be greater,
Thanks Awareness,
that is clear.

It's just that sometimes I wonder if
putting effort into understanding puzzling statements
is worth persuing at all ...
as time goes on there is less thinking here
about anything
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:30 am

makara wrote:
Greater' is an appearance/object in awareness.
Awareness cannot be greater,
Thanks Awareness,
that is clear.

It's just that sometimes I wonder if
putting effort into understanding puzzling statements
is worth persuing at all ...
as time goes on there is less thinking here
about anything
No thanks...

8)
dilaram

Post by dilaram » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:02 am

makara wrote:
So 'non-duality' is not a viewpoint but it appears as such.
Perhaps this is dead right.
Perhaps it is sophistry.
I really don't know.

This is dead right, dead wrong, sophistry, stupidity...you name it...
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